Re^6: No votes

[Argel]

PerlMonks does not exactly have the most intuitive interface. In many ways that's part of its charm. But lets be realistic -- it also makes it harder for new users to figure out how to do things. Even something like accessing your Inbox isn't as intuitive as it could be. So I don't think it's really fair to expect new Monks to quickly become acclimated to the environment. Even more so when English is not the respective Monk's native language, such as the case here where manoj_speed is from India. We also do not know the contents of the message sent by Co-Rion. If he told manoj_speed that he needed to contact the gods then exactly how is he supposed to know how to do that? I have been here over eight years and I think this thread is the first time I have seen "/msg gods". I'm not saying you are wrong -- but it also seems unreasonable to just assume new Monks can easily figure out how to navigate The Monastery.

[tye]

We all know that the message from Co-Rion said that it was from Co-Rion and that manoj_speed was able to send a private message to chromatic (but not when the problem was pointed out and feedback was requested, only after days passed and, lacking a response, a privilege was removed). So I don't see how a quirky interface can be blamed here (unless you think using a hyphen in a private /msg is somehow cast as "difficult" by the interface). The first reply here even said that the OP should reply to Co-Rion.

Luckily, the evidence is quite obvious and the excuses completely unconvincing. Had facial expressions been involved here then the excuses would have been met with frank rolling of the eyes and that would've been the end of it in most cases. But on the internet, everybody can fib with a straight face while they can't see how sincere your disbelief is in response.

No, I will not discuss what the evidence was, etc. I wouldn't discuss it at all had manoj_speed not chosen to make the problem public (and, no, I don't see any evidence that making it public was anything other than a dodge). And I still wouldn't have discussed it in public had I not felt that this particular third-party justification needed to be "put down" as not fitting the facts.

Yes, the interface isn't completely intuitive but the interface was successfully used and there was no requirement or even request for "/msg gods" to be used. So that is a lousy justification that doesn't deserve to be propped up.

[Argel]

My post was talking about new Monks and The Monastery in more general terms. I never said that manoj_speed didn't know how to /msg a user. My point is that experienced Monks often take for granted how confusing things can be here at first (and even more so for those with less experience with the English language).

I am willing to take it on blind faith that the evidence supports one person voting with two different accounts, etc. However, whether the messages sent to those accounts were clear, concise, and easy to understand is another matter. Co-Rion's first post in this thread is not a good indicator -- exactly what is "The reason is jonam resp. ..." supposed to mean??

I decided to comment because experienced Monks are taking the learning curve at The Monastery for granted in this thread. The actions or inactions of manoj_speed are for the most part irrelevant to the point I was making.

Oh, and calling me an "apologist" via the Title is quite beneath you.

[tye]

Perhaps "apologist" means something different to you than it does to me. Your words seem to imply that you consider the term an insult. None of the definitions I browsed quite match how I'm familiar with the word being used, but then none of them seem to imply that the term is derogatory either.

Your reply makes it clear that you weren't trying to make excuses for the OP. Prior to that, it sounded to me like that was exactly what you were doing. Surely, due to the context of your words and you not clearly reframing your remarks... which actually talk very specifically about manoj_speed, Co-Rion, and "/msg gods". So "talking in general terms" still isn't evident to me upon re-reading.

But, yes, I probably misused the word "apologist" and I apologize for insulting you¹ and attest that this was not my intent. And I now believe that you were not making excuses. Thank you for clarifying that.

¹ I presume, but admit that I am guessing as to what precisely it "being beneath me" was meant to imply, so I apologize again in case "insulting you" was not what I did.

So it seems that we aren't actually in disagreement (other than my unfortunate misuse of "apologist" -- sorry, again). Or, to be clearer, I am not in disagreement with you. Thanks.

[jdporter]

1. Is the PerlMonks FAQ not linked prominently enough?
2. Where, exactly, are the deficiencies in the PerlMonks FAQ? It seems to me that the FAQ is plenty clear on all of the issues you mention; but I admit that I may be too close to it to see it objectively.

[planetscape]

I've /privmsg'ed several new Monks letting them know their Message Inbox exists after it became obvious they did not know about it. IIRC, our own very savvy ELISHEVA found /msg'ing a usergroup (as opposed to an individual user) neither intuitive nor obvious.

I have, somewhere on my rather long "To Do" list, a notation that it would probably be a good idea to place a "/msg usergroup" link on each usergroup page, like exists currently for plain ol' users. I'm not sure I have the pmdev chops to accomplish this by myself, however. I've certainly not had the time to delve into the idea just recently.

Perhaps I need to do more reading of the site docs with an eye to this specific issue, to try to see if some improvement can be made in my role as SiteDocClan.

[Argel]

Looks like planetscape covered finding one's Inbox better than even I could. But I would add that just using it can be confusing. For example, the "move" section (the bottom right area) and the checkboxes around "showing messages" are all a bit confusing. And Super Search is not only a bit confusing at first but also very intimidating. Another example are the confusing choices for Consideration. I actually brought that up when I could start considering nodes but experienced Monks didn't think it was all that confusing. And now that I have been voting on considerations for several years I don't find them confusing either.

I think the reality is that the longer we have been at The Monastery the more we take the learning curve for granted. Maybe that applies to Perl as well! :-)