http://www.perlmonks.org?node_id=1018172


in reply to Re^2: Untillian Headache or about the semantic of until
in thread Untillian Headache or about the semantic of until

In italian the double negation is admitted and correct:

I don't speak Italian, but I do note the OP said:

In italian the double negation is admitted and correct:

I do know that in English, there are some sentiments that cannot be adequately captured without a double negation: Eg.

I like toast. does not fully capture the semantics of I don't not like toast. (Or perhaps more grammatically correct; I don't dislike toast.)

I cannot attempt to divine the true sentiments of the double negation in a language I do not speak; but from my limited experience of other non-English languages that have constructions that make little or no sense when translated literally to English, I know that often such constructions are perfectly logical in that language.

Eg. When speaking English, a Dutch person (who are usually very competent in English) will often say "When you were a woman..." instead of "If you were a woman ..." and conversely, "If the baby is born ... " when they actually mean "When the baby is born ...". It all comes down to the duality of the Dutch words 'als'.

Similarly, expressing 8:35 in English as 5 minutes past half an hour before 9:00 makes no sense at all; but that is exactly how it is commonly expressed in Dutch: vijf over half negen.

Which I read as "I will wait until you have not arrived".

Basically, your attempts to apply non-native logic to a language you do not speak doesn't make for a sound basis of argument.

With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday'
Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
"Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
  • Comment on Re^3: Untillian Headache or about the semantic of until

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re^4: Untillian Headache or about the semantic of until
by Your Mother (Archbishop) on Feb 11, 2013 at 17:38 UTC

    Italian is the same. The more negation, the more emphatic but the meaning doesn't change.

[reply]
Re^4: Untillian Headache or about the semantic of until
by salva (Canon) on Feb 11, 2013 at 16:59 UTC
    I am not sure about Italian, but in Spanish negation does not always sum up. For instance, we say "I don't have no book" instead of "I don't have any book" or "I don't do it never" instead of "I never do it"... but "I never do it" is also correct and have the same meaning!
[reply]

      Interesting. One question. Is that really "I don't do it never"; or could it be "I don't do it ever"? (I know zero Spanish!)

      With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday'
      Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
      "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
      In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
[reply]
        Not sure about Spanish, but in Czech, "I don't do it ever" is almost impossible, but "I ever don't do it" means "I do not do it sometimes" :-)
        لսႽ† ᥲᥒ⚪⟊Ⴙᘓᖇ Ꮅᘓᖇ⎱ Ⴙᥲ𝇋ƙᘓᖇ
[reply]
Re^4: Untillian Headache or about the semantic of until
by RonW (Parson) on Apr 04, 2016 at 22:33 UTC
    I like toast. does not fully capture the semantics of I don't not like toast. (Or perhaps more grammatically correct; I don't dislike toast.)

    "dislike" is not quite the same as "not like". At least in my observation, "dislike" fits between "ambivalent" and "hate":

    "love" --- "like" --- "ambivalent" --- "dislike" --- "hate"

    (At least as applies to the degree of liking something.)

    So, "not like" would be any of "ambivalent", "dislike" or "hate", while "dislike" is a specific (range of) degree of (not) liking.

    I understand what you are trying to say, but this was not a good example.

[reply]

In Section Meditations