Re^2: A request from level 21

in reply to Re: A request from level 21
in thread A request from level 21

The site is partially driven by xp hunger. If a fancy title encourages this thing to keep going, so be it. The religious motif is unfortunate, but I take it as just meant to be a fun theme.

Comment on Re^2: A request from level 21

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re^3: A request from level 21 by Argel (Prior) on Jul 10, 2008 at 21:52 UTC
Well, I wouldn't expect a lowly Friar to fully grasp the nuances of The Monastery. Certainly not as much as a Saint would. I am of course being facetious. But I will call point, set, and match. Showing levels is a bad idea because it promotes elitism. I think the XP system was just fine the way it was -- no additional encouragement was needed and it struck a nice balance between encouraging participation without encouraging too much elitism or someone "pulling rank". Having the title displayed in posts breaks that balance. Besides, as grinder pointed out this change was made to (in theory) help deal with trolls. Does it accomplish that goal? And are the unintended consequences worth it? I am (not surprisingly) inclined to say "no" to both. I have to say that I am pretty disappointed right now. It's sad when a simple suggestion like mine in 694443 that would make Super Search easier to use goes unimplemented while ones that can have a significant negative impact on the social workings of The Monastery are implemented without even a modicum of meaningful discussion. Not cool! Regarding the religious motif, yes, it is meant to be fun. But that can be taken too far. The obvious example of this is the Grand Inquisitor title that was renamed to Sage (see this thread for more). I'm inclined to say showing the titles is pushing things a little too far.	[reply]
Re^4: A request from level 21 by yitzchak (Sexton) on Jul 11, 2008 at 00:46 UTC
I have to say that I am pretty disappointed right now. It's sad when a simple suggestion like mine in 694443 that would make Super Search easier to use goes unimplemented while ones that can have a significant negative impact on the social workings of The Monastery are implemented without even a modicum of meaningful discussion. Not cool! Sometimes you have to make changes first to get to the meaningful discussion part. Otherwise you mostly get a lot of comments from people who like to solve social problems, who tend to be the people who would end up being happy almost no matter what (though that may not be their self-perception). I certainly thought about opt-in vs. opt-out and actual user-setting vs. just css control before making the change, but I didn't expect to get enough (or any, really) meaningful feedback on those variations just by starting a discussion. Making the change and seeing who reacts how seemed like the only effective way to judge how people would take it. So consider this feature as being in a open for comments period; thank you for your comments.	[reply]
Re^5: A request from level 21 by Arunbear (Prior) on Jul 12, 2008 at 11:24 UTC
I'm not in favour of this feature either. It clutters the reply header without adding value. I prefer to visit a monk's home node to find out more about them, at least there I can see other things like their number of write ups and how long they've been here etc. I agree that publicising the levels to this extent is kind of dehumanizing, like being forced to wear an armband. No doubt I could choose not to see what armbands others are wearing, but would I be able prevent others from seeing what armband I am wearing? Also, it takes time for a (signed-up) troll to acquire his negative karma, and having a troll armband is likely to encourage the troll to 'work' for his armband - which really defeats the point of this feature.	[reply]
Re^5: A request from level 21 by Argel (Prior) on Jul 11, 2008 at 08:27 UTC
This smacks more of "do it now and ask for forgiveness afterwords" than anything else since the chances this feature survives are much greater now that it is already implemented. And I felt that way before Anonymous Monk pointed out past discussions in Re: A request from level 21. Those discussions put the lie to your justifications for doing this since clearly Monks have in the past been able to discuss this without having it implemented first. And what's with posting with your "Novice" secondary account? Afraid of losing some XP?!? Update: downvote if you want but a rose is still a rose and a spade is a spade.	[reply]
Re^6: A request from level 21 (feedback) by tye (Sage) on Jul 12, 2008 at 09:34 UTC
Re^7: A request from level 21 (future) by tye (Sage) on Jul 13, 2008 at 06:48 UTC
Some notes below your chosen depth have not been shown here
Re^7: A request from level 21 (feedback) by Argel (Prior) on Jul 13, 2008 at 18:31 UTC
Re^6: A request from level 21 by Zen (Deacon) on Jul 11, 2008 at 14:54 UTC
Re^7: A request from level 21 by Argel (Prior) on Jul 11, 2008 at 16:19 UTC
Some notes below your chosen depth have not been shown here
Re^4: A request from level 21 by Hue-Bond (Priest) on Jul 11, 2008 at 05:34 UTC
Besides, as grinder pointed out this change was made to (in theory) help deal with trolls. And let's not forget that the original idea was to tag monks who required penance, not all monks but them. I'd rather see that change applied instead of the current one. -- David Serrano	[reply]
Re^4: A request from level 21 by Zen (Deacon) on Jul 10, 2008 at 22:16 UTC
I agree with most of this. I guess I just don't take the motif that seriously, but I respect that some do. I personally don't care if I'm a friar or pope, nor has anyone busted me on my low xp even when presenting the failings of perl 6 to Saint Larry.	[reply]
Re^5: A request from level 21 by Argel (Prior) on Jul 10, 2008 at 22:53 UTC
I didn't think it did either, but I do find it a bit disturbing to have "Priest" next to my name. Before this change was implemented the XP/Level things was more in the background and more personal (e.g. the message indicating how much XP you still need to reach the next level). I liked it that way. I don't like it in the foreground like it is now and I really hope someone rolls this back.	[reply]
Re^4: A request from level 21 by Gavin (Archbishop) on Jul 11, 2008 at 11:59 UTC
I think Grand Inquisitor would suit Him very well hehe!	[reply]
Re^3: A request from level 21 by rovf (Priest) on Jul 11, 2008 at 09:07 UTC
Well, being an agnostic (not an atheist), I see the whole stuff pretty relaxed. Maybe the only sad thing is that I can't ever become god - I would enjoy seeing people pray to me ;-) Joking aside, I had expected arguments against our religious levels coming rather from fundamental christs than from those fellow monks who are not so extremely inclined to Christianity (which comprises everyone from three-quarter--hearted Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, up to Agnostics and Atheists). I think the labels are entertaining, and it is just one of the things which makes the site so entertaining to use. So I vote for leaving things as they are... -- Ronald Fischer <ynnor@mm.st>	[reply]
Re^4: A request from level 21 by Argel (Prior) on Jul 11, 2008 at 09:26 UTC
I think the labels are entertaining It was fine when it was just on one's homenode and e.g. Saints in our Book. But I do not want people influenced too much from seeing "Argel (Priest)" over and over again (). There really needs to be a way to opt-out completely -- i.e. where no one would see the title (besides the usual places before this change). I also find them distracting and dehumanizing. Without the titles there is just the user's nickname to go by which helps personalize it. But now I have already found myself focusing on just the title -- e.g. "oh, just an Acolyte, I'll skip reading that thread". The XP system is meant to encourage participation -- not forming cliques, elitist attitudes, etc. You might want to meditate on what some of the long-term ramifications of this change will likely be. () Yeah, I know -- I should stop posting! ;-)	[reply]
Re^5: A request from level 21 by rovf (Priest) on Jul 11, 2008 at 10:11 UTC
I also find them distracting and dehumanizing. ... But now I have already found myself focusing on just the title -- e.g. "oh, just an Acolyte, I'll skip reading that thread" Ah, I see. In this case, I agree with you! -- Ronald Fischer <ynnor@mm.st>	[reply]
Re^3: A request from level 21 by Argel (Prior) on Jul 10, 2008 at 22:02 UTC
The site is partially driven by xp hunger. Actually, now that I think about I'm not sure if that is really true. XP does encourage participation, but do some of our most vocal and helpful Monks such as ikegami and BrowserUK really care about XP that much? I think for several of us the XP system is more like icing on the cake or a pat on the back.	[reply]

In Section Perl Monks Discussion