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by ww (Bishop)
on May 10, 2004 at 13:43 UTC ( #352046=user: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

How to RTFM

holli's Monk Links - Copy Perlmonks-links to the clipboard in on-site-format.


...and, re CB: "people generlly appreciate it if you take the extra 10 milliseconds to type all of the letters in your words instead of non-existent homophones particularly non-native speakers of English."

             belg4mit 2005-03-02 08:31:06-05

recent (or recently 'discovered') PM super_goodies:

...and Ovid's cgi tutorial (including charentitites Appx)

Why XP is NOT important:
19 Aug 05
You gained 2 experience points.
Your new level imbues you with super-powers! Check out Level 10: Saint for the details!
25 Jul 10
You gained 3 experience points.
Congratulations, you have been promoted to Canon!

Became 30th on Saints List, 5 Jan 2012 (29,397, 603 to go to Chancellor)

and, on 10 Feb 12 (ca 21:20 UT)
You gained 1 experience point. Do you want a medal, too?
Congratulations, you have been promoted to Chancellor!
You have 10000 points until level 22 - Bishop.

...and o/a 1 Dec 13, entered the 'top 20' on the Saints list.
    and at 0658 EST (US Eastern) on 1 Mar 14, ordained a "Bishop":
You gained 1 experience point.
Congratulations, you have been promoted to Bishop!
You have 10000 points until level 23 - Archbishop.

Posts by ww
perlnews item worth reading! in Meditations
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by ww
on May 05, 2015 at 16:12
MJDs Contract Warnings - courtesy of Perlweekly in Meditations
4 direct replies — Read more / Contribute
by ww
on Mar 30, 2015 at 08:10
RFC: debugger_trainer in Meditations
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by ww
on Dec 24, 2012 at 17:05

    Here's a first draft, incomplete implementation a possible response to my notion (YMMV) that Perl's CLI debugger is intimidating to novices (well, it was to me... for several years).

    IOW, here's a simple-minded, do-nothing, little script that invites the user to explore some debugger commands in circumstances in which s/he need not fear will be tantamount to rm rf (or del *.* /s, if 'doze in the learner's OS flavor).

    My hope is that the minimal set of operations in the script give a hint of (or maybe "are extensive enough for a start?") the range of debugger options/commands which the user would be well advised to learn.

    The specific RFC follows the code:

    #!/usr/bin/perl use 5.014; # modify to match your "perl -v" unless (@ARGV) { say "debugger practice; on restart, 1st arg must be a number\n"; exit; } say "Explore debugger commands w expr W expr b Ln|Event B Ln|Event (et +c incl l v s n)\n"; my ($var1, $var2, $var3); my @arr = qw (a b c d e f g); sub testable { # useless uninformative comment my $subvar1 = shift; say "\t In sub testable, \$var1: $var1"; my $subvar2 = shift; say "\t AS PASSED TO SUB, \$var2: $var2"; $subvar2 *= 5; say "\t In sub testable, \$subvar2: $subvar2"; my $subvar_rand_int = int(rand($subvar2)); say "\t In sub, \$subvar_rand_int is: $subvar_rand_int."; return $subvar_rand_int; # to $result } chomp($var1 = shift); $var2 = int(3*$var1); say "Pre_sub, \$var1: $var1 and \$var2: $var2"; push my @pass_to_sub,$var1; push @pass_to_sub,$var2; my $result = testable(@pass_to_sub); say "Back from sub with \$result: $result"; # another comment for exploration of the deugger for $_(@arr) { $_ .= "_foo"; say "$_ " x $result; say "\n"; }

    So, the question: are this notion and this approach worth pursuing, further, with additional scripts focusing on packages, OO, modules, etc... If so, where should that focus begin?

    Or should one, IYO, focus instead on getting noobs to use some of the available (often for $$$) GUI debuggers/other debuggers?

Preview for "Update" in Perl Monks Discussion
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by ww
on Dec 05, 2012 at 17:40
    Brethern and Sistern (excuse the homo sap bias):

    For the too-many-th time, I discovered after posting that I'd omitted a critical point, markup or something else that left me dissatisfied with the node and then turned myself into a serial updater by adding an error for every correction.

    Therefore, seizing the bull by the bs ^H^H^H ... er, horns, may we discuss a possible change to the update capability; namely, an optional "preview before updating" configuration, which might be added to the option for direct posting without previewing which exists for Monks of certain orders?

    Alternately, we might add a second, "preview" button to the existing "update" button and redirect the action that way.

    And, actually I'm very curious about why this hasn't surfaced recently. It may be this has engendered little interest previously or that it's a fundamentally 'bad idea' or that it's in the 'too hard' box (but, without suggesting I'm sure I could do the job, I don't see why that would be the case).

    What say you?

RFC - shortform posting guidance for newcomers in Perl Monks Discussion
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by ww
on Jan 04, 2012 at 12:12

    RFC. First Draft of proposed, shortform, guide to posting SOPW. Cuts, refs, negatives (but, yes, we all know that some people won't read guidance, no matter how brief) welcomed!

    5 Jan update: Reviewing Marto's suggestion, below, and the ++'s -- which in this case, I read as agreement -- how say ye to adding (as I've done below) li 7? Or do you lean to Eliya's view?   I've also replaced the "Ditto" in li 3. Also, reordered to keep code questions together.

    So, you're gonna' post a SOPW? Unneeded in last-second checklist. Stricken 5 Jan

    Here's a brief checklist for your question.
    1. Code tags ( <c> ... </c> ) tags around data and code?
    2. Includes a tiny snippet of (compilable) code that reproduces/illustrates your problem?
    3. Narrative description (not "doesn't work") of how that code falls short of your needs or expectations?
    4. Also provides sample data?
    5. Quoted, verbatim, all error messages and warnings (again, inside code tags!)?
    6. A title that identifies your topic (and no, that doesn't mean "Help, please" or a module name alone)?
    7. Post your OS, Perl (perl -v) and module (if relevant) versions?
    Here's some additional reference material:
    On asking for help   |   How do I post a question effectively?
    I know what I mean. Why don't you?   |   Markup in the Monastery

    ... and read the formatting tips around the the text-input and preview-edit boxes!

    See luis.roca's Re: RFC - shortform posting guidance for newcomers.
having same title while posting a new question in Perl Monks Discussion
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by ww
on Dec 10, 2011 at 11:06
More re PM bug? in Perl Monks Discussion
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by ww
on Nov 09, 2011 at 20:14

    More re PM Bug? ... because I can't reply to that thread... and after preview and create, I get what I've written and posted labeled as written by another monk (and same ID as the other monk's prior reply) -- but then that content never shows in the thread. Seems to have jetted off somewhere (but not the bit bucket?).

    Actually, same problem for me started with an attempt to reply to New site for perl... and I may have besmirched GrandFather's good reputation if my post ever actually shows up, since the rendered content after preview and create attributed comment to him:

    Thread: begins at New site for perl
    GrandFather's: Re: New site for perl
    (His actual post: questions failure to mention PM as a resource)
    Mine, when created after preview: same id, with this content:
    Tips'n Tricks->one liner: unix quoting with no qualifiers to stmnt that "This will print Hello oneliner in command line."
    Nope; it will print the Hello oneliner on the command line ONLY so long as the CLI is nix-=ish.

    Tutorial: "Introduction
    PERL - Practical Extraction and Reporting Language
    You do know that's a backronym, right?

    Tutorial (again): "File Handling" ...
    No example of 3 arg open?

    News: First item is announcement of the site by an individual wasting huge amounts of resources here?

    Update: Thanks to tye for the fix; 2nd blockquoted content above posted as intended now.</update>

    OTOH, you've done some neat stuff to render additional detail about examples, just for instance... So work on the content.

    Also noticed that BrowserUK has posted a node sometime today (lost its id; sorry) saying, loosely paraphrased, Ignore this; PM is all screwed up....

Thoughtless voting? in Perl Monks Discussion
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by ww
on Jan 29, 2011 at 07:48

    Lately, I've been astounded when logging on as part of my morning routine. There, in the XP nodelet, is the news that I've "gained $n experience points."
    OK, so you might ask, "why 'astounded'?" Well, usually, I haven't written anything worth many upvotes.

    But what disturbs me is that it appears some nodes are getting multiple upvotes when they plainly 1 deserve to be downvoted. And to me, those upvotes suggest that those who cast them have succumbed to the temptations of XP-whoring or are voting without thoughtful evaluation of the content.

    Take this upvoted node2, for example, by a Monk with more than 500 posts and fewer than 50 XP3 (talk about someone with 'one year's experience, eight times)'

    Reputation: -9 (+3 -12)
    "Please could someone suggest modules or methods that would allow me to go into a bunch of Excel files and extract contents by sheet name. So there is a seperate output file for each class of sheet."

    Yep! No code; no sign of any effort, under-spec'ed, misspelling and all, and then, in response to the first reply (which points to Spreadsheet::ParseExcel), this:

    "Reputation: -6 (+2 -8)
    I am assuming that this is the better option of the two showing up, as of present. Does anyone have code that has done exactly what I wish to do. Please."

    So, "assuming" was worth two upvotes? I don't really think so, but we could debate that one, were it not directly followed by an explicit 'gimme!'

    However, moving on, lest I fail to offer evidence for frequent irresponsible upvotes, there's the notorious

    Reputation: -38 (+8 -46)
    perl -le 'print 5056.45 + 10112.92 == 15169.37 ? "as expected" : "perl math sucks!"'

    Trolling? "Dis-ing" Perl? Well, a charitable intpretation might be that this was really intended as a clever paraphrase of the accumulated wisdom on the imprecisions of floating point numbers... but in that case, it's surely not so unworthy as to draw so many - -s and thus is just the flip side of "unwarranted upvotes."

    And consider, please, another simple (if not explicitly articulated) 'gimme!'

    Reputation: -22 (+5 -27)
    I tried but I am too rusty. I need a program to : ....


    Reputation: -8 (+5 -13)
    Hi, i am using perl lite and having problem printing the soap response. The client is print a binary HASH value.
    how do i get the complete response (HTML) from the binary HASH value
    its SOAP lite

    So, to get to the point, do we perhaps need to rethink the awarding of XP for the act of voting?
    If so, some options, albeit flawed, might include:

    • Penalizing upvotes where some sufficient (ummm. Yeah, we might have trouble finding a concensus on a value for "sufficient") ratio of Monks have downvoted a node
    • Doing away with XP gains for voting
    • On weekends (when -- it seems to me -- the most egregious upvoting often occurs) suspending XP gains for voting
    • Granting XP gains for voting only at some minimum monk-ish level
    • Additional educational efforts -- perhaps utilizing a method something like the optional preview mode when posting a node or reply; also mandatory until some level of experience is attained
    • Creation of a (strictly limited) order of Monks -- call them "Editors" or "Censors" as you will -- charged with editing 'gimme' nodes (and whatever others are seen as particularly out of conformity with the values and customs of the Monastery) by prepending a warning -- something on the order of "Do NOT upvote this node. OP" ...(showed no effort | mistook the Monastery for a codewriting service | is grossly off-topic | etc)

    Is anyone else (concerned | annoyed | {some other negative}) about this? Or is this merely a worthwhile price for passing out votes on rep as we do?

    1 Well, YMMV, but the above are only a few example; not necessarily the most (IMO) grotesque.

    2 I've debated providing links to the nodes cited, and concluded that doing so would be tantamount to attacking the OPs ... and, in any case, if one wishes to verify my quotes and interpretation, Super Search will suffice.

    3 OK, that can be read as evidence that the system overwhelms the unwarranted upvotes -- in the most egregious cases. It's not so clear that's true of the majority of such upvotes -- ++s of nodes that are merely "so-so" or only "minimally bad."

    </rant> (for now....)

    Update(s): Re a few points raised below...and re possibly lack of clarity above.

    First and foremost, the rant is only tangentially about XP... and that, only in the sense that I have a suspicion that some votes are cast in hopes of obtaining XP.

    But it is very much about node rep and Anonymonk raises the question at Re: Thoughtless voting? very directly: "Does node reputation matter?"

    Since I can't answer the other two questions there, let me address the first... and my answer is a resounding "yes;" not for the writer's ego gratification but as a rough measure of the extent to which the node illuminates the topic at hand or provides pointers to relevant concepts; as a hint about the nodes perceived thoughtfulness; accuracy; wisdom; perceptiveness (or, sometimes, humor or even outstanding use of language). And if we were to develop a way to filter searches by rep, it could be a forward-looking guide, rather than merely retrospective (other than best nodes, PM discourages attempts to read node rep until AFTER the viewer has voted).

    On the other hand, I do hope the description of iguanodon's vote is tongue-in-cheek, or some of the irony mentioned elsewhere. Upvoting a node to see the tally skews the count and diminishes the value of that count for those who might later choose to up- or down- vote a node and then discover how well their view comports with whatever consensus, if any exists. (As I write this, about 3 hours after posting, the node's tally reflects no consensus).

    John Davies has an interesting point, too, re the voting pattern I discuss: "I don't see evidence that this is encouraging bad or discouraging good nodes."

    Nor do I; the Monastery has long had newcomers who bypass recommendations on how to frame a question... and a few, sadly, who've been here long enough to know better. But it's also a site where newcomers frequently raise questions or make comments that earn well-deserved reputations.

    But, John, I definitely see casting an upvote for a node where my assessment is '"OK, it's bad, but not that bad"' because as you say, that vote "may be incentive for some to upvote out of generosity...." From my (snarky) viewpoint, the appropriate generosity is in *not* downvoting the bad node (And anyway, there are too many *really good nodes* most days to waste votes and effort downvoting anything other than those which state something definitely untrue/inaccurate) or which really reflect a lack of interest in learning from good advice (in the vein of i didn't bother to study the docs you told me about; just gimme some code to do that job).

    This is becoming way too long, so just two more points:

    • ChuckularOne's parting observation seems suggest creating some 'measure of merit' accessible to visitors hoping for guidance on how any given Monk's guidance may stack up against some competing suggestion
    • ++ to wjw's comment. I don't buy all of it, but several points seem to be well worth thinking about.
Server glitches implicated in some dup posts? in Perl Monks Discussion
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by ww
on Mar 09, 2010 at 13:11

    Lately (in ca 60 days < today -- 2010-03-09), I have been noticing an anomaly: my clicks on certain submit buttons (including "vote" in Newest Nodes, "preview" and "create" when creating a response to a parent node, and a few others (sorry, not logged as carefully as I should have) produce in response, rendering of the Gates (in the window of origin -- that is, where I clicked) instead of the expected outcome -- preview, create or vote cast..

    Anecdotal evidence in the CB and elsewhere, that others have also experienced this. In my case, it's occuring with w32 and linux vers of FFox, 3.5.n on both. My impression is that this "get the wrong page" phenomonon occurs most frequently -- but NOT exclusively -- when the site is exceptionally slow.

    A case in point is presently visible in this section; in my replies to id://827391.
    and, an instance I suspect, in cdarkes at id://827495 amd id://827494
    and -- who knows -- perhaps some of the items recently marked "please reap; inadvertent dup" (or words to that effect) from posters who are among the most senior of Monks.

    Full Disclosure: Though I am honored by inclusion among devils, I'm not sufficiently skilled to track down a suspected cause and propose a solution.

vote fairy goofing off? in Perl Monks Discussion
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by ww
on Dec 04, 2009 at 16:16

    Twice in the past 10 days, I've been skulking about the Monastery for an hour or more in a time frame spanning my local midnight -- ie, at more or less the time the vote fairy normally replaces my un-used votes with a fresh batch.

    In both cases, I awakened the next morning to discover that she'd passed me by: I still had whatever (few) votes I'd had left just before my local midnight, but no fresh ones (and we all know that finding only stale votes in our stockings is less satisfactory even than week-old trout). So, some possible surmises include:

    • Perhaps the VF has adopted the "Santa Claus rule;" that 'good children should be tucked snug in their beds when she vists' or...
    • perhaps I've offended her or...
    • maybe Vroom gave her a holiday.

    But I'm inclined to suspect a glitch beyond my competence to find (never mind to suggest a fix) -- perhaps in which is "Permission denied; tough beans" to me and thus, possibly, to all devs.

    Have others experienced this? Lately? Or -- better yet -- is there a diagnosis or Rx hidden somewhere in the twisty passages?

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