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Re^6: -Ofun times

by moritz (Cardinal)
on Apr 14, 2014 at 14:53 UTC ( #1082252=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re^5: -Ofun times
in thread -Ofun times

This is what bought us into this trouble in the first place.

Do you honestly think that following all the advice that Anonymous Monk gives would be better project management? Really?


Comment on Re^6: -Ofun times
Re^7: -Ofun times
by Jenda (Abbot) on Apr 14, 2014 at 16:32 UTC

    Do you honestly think it even matters anymore?

    Jenda
    Enoch was right!
    Enjoy the last years of Rome.

Re^7: -Ofun times
by Anonymous Monk on Apr 14, 2014 at 21:59 UTC
    It couldn't be any worse than what you have, at least since you drove off Nat, Allison, and Jesse.

    How about that! If your project is so broken that it's burned out THOSE three brilliant people, maybe there's something fishy going on.

Re^7: -Ofun times
by Anonymous Monk on Apr 15, 2014 at 03:43 UTC

    No, but you don't need Anonymous monks to tell you why things have gone so wrong with Perl 6

    A little bit of analysis will help. Even if one agrees Parrot was dying. JVM was perfect for nearly 95% of the programming world. You absolutely didn't have to start work on Moar VM at all. Contrary to whatever a few negligible number of users out of negligible number of total users that Perl 6 has would have told you. The world is no urgent to see Perl 6 run on Mono, Java script, HipHop VM or anything. All languages in their first cut production release run on one VM and that's perfectly acceptable. Instead we now have a situation where the spec needle hasn't moved a degree on the completion meter, whilst bulk of the effort now goes in working on Moar VM and making Rakudo working on Moar VM.

    Is it really that hard to notice the problem here? You have strayed off course and put months of effort to achieve results nobody needs currently

    List of things to be done should have been To make Rakudo spec complete, faster, with documentation and standard libraries. And in that order.

    I know how all of this is going to play out eventually. Another year from now. Rakduo as-is now, will run on Moar VM while there will be few more new projects to port it to dozen other VM's. Because a few random lurkers on IRC will tell you how cool it is to make Rakudo run on their Toy VM's. While the focus should actually be on serious users, Who are likely to never use anything apart from JVM or Mono(Sometime in the future). Serious users who need a finished product on one VM properly, with documentation, no show stopper bugs, and standard library

    And well yeah coming to the project management part. Any average PM will tell you why it is important to keep your enthusiasm in control to finish of your current goals. No matter how tempting new projects feel, or how much your hands itch to start coding for a new project. Finishing off what you've started is more important

      Don't waste your time. #perl6 is convinced that the only way to get a working perl-6 is to do it exactly as they have done it. Er, haven't done it yet.

      They are just misunderstood geniuses to whom the rules of project management could not possibly apply.

      Any average PM will tell you why it is important to keep your enthusiasm in control to finish of your current goals.

      Yea, and any average PM would also tell you that in order to get some long term project done, you need to get people motivated. Most of (all?) the people working on Perl 6 does it just for fun, and they are entitled to do whatever they want with their free time and follow the path that betters suits their guts.

      If you don't like that, start sending money to the project so we can change the motivation factor from fun to money. Or just contribute your time and do that parts that you thing that should be done now.

      Otherwise, just shut up, please!

        Otherwise, just shut up, please!

        You have that backwards :)

        If you don't like hearing feedback on perlmonks, stop soliciting feedback on perlmonks

        14 years is long enough for everybody to get tired of hearing two weeks blah blah blah

        And this other anonymous is very civil, kesps poking holes with logic instead of just yelling and swearing

          You absolutely didn't have to start work on Moar VM at all.

      MoarVM gave us speed. It is like 3 to 5 times faster to recompile the compiler which helps the devs a lot. Especially spectesting within 6 minutes is way nicer than waiting 30 minutes or more.

      MoarVM also gave us concurrency on the same fast VM, and also Unicode introspection. There is no other VM that can do that now or within, say, a few months. So IMO the decision to create MoarVM was a very very good one.

          Instead we now have a situation where the spec needle hasn't moved a degree on the completion meter[...]

      Not true. And you just have to look at this graph: https://github.com/perl6/specs/graphs/contributors S11 and S22 get completed (module versioning, cpan, etc). The specs for concurrency got written (S17) and S15 (strings and unicode) is now in a very good shape.

          List of things to be done should have been To make Rakudo spec complete, faster, with documentation and standard libraries. And in that order.

      In some areas it is very hard to spec something without a way to play with it. Like for concurrency. It was very helpful to have a sort of working implementation to play with, then spec how it should look like and then adjust the implementation. That happened within the last ten months I think.

          I know how all of this is going to play out eventually. Another year from now. Rakduo as-is now, will run on Moar VM while there will be few more new projects to port it to dozen other VM's.

      I know the devs very well (hey, I am one of them), and I can say that there won't be dozens of VMs that get targeted within near future. There was a GSoC project to target JavaScript last year, and I do not see any other VM that would give Perl 6 such a benefit that would trick one of the devs into working on it. Surely there are "outsiders" that try to make it run on other VMs like luajit, but there is also RPerl and Perl5i that does not trick any of the Perl 5 devs into working on it...

          And well yeah coming to the project management part. Any average PM will tell you why it is important to keep your enthusiasm in control to finish of your current goals. No matter how tempting new projects feel, or how much your hands itch to start coding for a new project. Finishing off what you've started is more important

      +1

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