Beefy Boxes and Bandwidth Generously Provided by pair Networks
Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister
 
PerlMonks  

Re: The World Trade Center Tragedy

by OzzyOsbourne (Chaplain)
on Sep 12, 2001 at 16:06 UTC ( #111887=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to The World Trade Center Tragedy

The first thing that I heard today was church bells and I wept, alone, in my car. I did not react this way to Oklahoma City, although a terrible tragedy, because it was civil unrest. It sounds strange, and I can't explain it, but I, and other Americans are not only saddened, but angered by this attack.

If it was a civil action, god help us, because our identity will be torn apart.

If it was an external attack, god help the region that inflicted it. We are an independent and free people born of rebels, pioneers, and malcontents. Our society feeds us Darwinistic ideals from our earliest days, encouraging us to be the best. We are so absorbed with this notion of being the best and the brightest that when something like the WTC bombing occurs, we can't understand it.

As Americans, we see ourselves as the peace keepers of the world and the largest source of humanitarian aid. When we travel, we know that people in foreign countries resent us. They make comments about us being stupid and rude. They make fun of us behind our backs (They never complain about taking our money!). They get angrier, and angrier, and finally attack our civilians on our own soil and cheer in the streets at our death toll. They say that we should keep our noses out of the world's business. A foreign-born friend actually said this to me after the attack, and I almost took her head clean off.

We can't stay out of your business, but I now wish that there was some way that we could. If we could only shut the doors, and give the world the bird. Fend for yourselves. No more aid, no more trade: just your countrymen, fending off the Next Hitlers and Soviet expansions. Good luck to you all.

Every person that I have seen on the street today in America is willing to lock eyes with you. No one really locks eyes here. We are all busy with our own business to notice, nevermind lock eyes. We all are thinking the same thing. We all feel the same way. We are sad and angry, and know that life has somehow changed. We all have changed, and we are all alone, yet united in our sadness. We are also barbaric in our anger. Everyone who has talked about this has mentioned turning the responsible country into a "parking lot".

The Japanese attacked us and the death toll was far lower, and they were all service men. Nuclear weoponry was deemed an appropriate response. What is an appropriate response to this, much larger tragedy?

A friend of mine watched the whole thing from a rooftop in midtown and walked 2 miles home through the rubbble. She is safe. Another friend of mine works in NYC, and I can't get through to him. I'm sorry about this rant, but everyone here is horrbily embroiled in this tragedy.

This could be a turning point in the modern world.

Update: My aforementioned friend was on the 38th floor of the 1st building. He is OK.

-OzzyOsbourne


Comment on Re: The World Trade Center Tragedy
Re: (OT) Parking Lot
by mandog (Curate) on Sep 12, 2001 at 18:46 UTC
    If evidence beyond a reasonable doubt proves that it is Bin-Landin who is responsible and if the Talaban continue to shelter him, the military option is considerably more complicated than "turning the country into a parking lot." The Russians shared a boarder with Afghanistan and spent 10 years using everything short of nuclear weapons. They never controlled more than major roads and larger cities. The United States had a similar experience in Vietnam.

    Officially, most of the Islamic world is shocked and outraged at recent events. As a practical matter, much of the Islamic world believes that the United States and Israel have already committed crimes against them as bad or worse than the world trade canter bombing. This may not be objectively true, but it is only the perception that matters

    If we were to invade Afghanistan, Pakistan is likely to use its border to enthusiastically support and supply the Talaban. There are other nations that would enthusiastically provide the supplies. A war with Afghanistan could take 10 years and require genocide to win.

    Using enough nuclear weapons to achieve this genocide quickly is likely to kill tens of thousands of people in neighbouring countries.

    If it comes to war with Afghanistan, it would be wise to treat the Talaban as the Germans and Japanese were treated after WWII.



    --mandog

      And I didn't say that we should turn it into a parking lot. But it is consistently discussed

      Your replies to this node in this tragic hour speaking of the justifications for why these people attacked and how we should rethink our viewpoint sicken me. To you, battered wives bring it on themselves. Maybe we should step down and lock up, and let the world fend for itself. Let the Hitlers and The Stalins, etc to take over.

      I am disgusted. I am disgusted with the thought that killing of innocent citizens is justified. I am disgusted that without the US, the world would be a parking lot. I am disgusted that people with their hands out can justify this attack. And disgusted that you can look at it in this light. I am disgusted with your replies.

      I'm inviting the negative XP for sure, but I can't believe in a community that thinks this way.

      To not act with extreme prejudice in a situation like this only invites more actions. More loss of life. And if it can happen in the US, it can happen in any country. It won't cripple our economy (and the worlds economy), for we have numerous financial centers, but it could cripple theirs. By not responding, we jeopordize the world.

      I didn't say it before, but whoever the assailants are, they should be turned into a parking lot. The retibution should be so fierce as to discourage this action from ever happening again. I'm sure my 2 NY friends (who I hear are still in shock) would agree that this should never re occur.

      Vote this down a million XP. Vote down all of my nodes if you must. I am disgusted, and I don't care. I have never shed a tear for someone that I did not know until today

      THOUSANDS of rescue workers, firefighters, EMTs, and normal people just like you are dead. And someone got away with it.

      Not America, but the Western way of life has been attacked, viciously, on it's own soil.

      I think that is the biggest deal in the last 50 years.

      -OzzyOsbourne

        He did not say they were justified.

        He said that they thought that they were justified. They thought this because of decades of watching the US routinely destabilize governments, train their enemies, sell arms to both sides in wars to collect the profits, etc, etc, etc.

        Please, before you get angry at me, consider this very carefully. There are a billion people in the world today who hate the USA with their very hearts and souls. I, a fellow American, am telling you that this is not an accident, it is an inevitable outcome of routine outrages that the US perpetrates. The US activities are not to blame (I hate the concept of blame, it causes people to stop thinking far too soon), but the US actions made something like this very predictable.

        The US at this point will react. Has no choice but to react. With a reaction completely out of proportion with what was done to us. (We lost a few thousand people. Millions will die for this. At this point the main issue is deciding which millions of people will die, but die they will.) In fact the US has little choice but to so react, if it doesn't give the expected reaction then it will become a far bigger target that it has been. And, after all, there are a billion people who hate our guts who now have hope that we can be hurt and hurt badly.

        However once we react, I sincerely hope that back at home people take a further step and decide that we shall not carry on with politics as usual. Because if we do then this will happen again. Not next year. Not in the next 10 years. But it will happen, and once again the result will be tragically predictable.

        I am sorry for your anger and your pain and for the contribution my last post has made to your anger and pain.

        Whether it was your intention or not, expressing the desire to turn another country into a parking lot amounts to expressing the desire to kill many innocent people. We have all done or said things in anger that we have bitterly regretted.

        The point I am ineptly trying to make was that atrocity spawns atrocity. This was a horrible, evil thing. Yes, some kind of violence is probably the appropriate response. No, we should not blindly slaughter more innocents in response because this is the only thing we have the power to do.

        Perhaps it is best to keep this thread as a place for people to share their pain.



        --mandog

      There shall be little similarity with either Vietnam or Russia's previous war with Afghanistan.

      Both of those were fought under the rules of the Cold War. Both were battles by a superpower which had little public support back home, little support from allies, and with opponents that were being funded and trained by powerful enemies that nobody dared fight directly.

      This time the US will go to war with full public support, along with the militaries of most of Europe and quite likely Russia. Any country strongly suspected of aiding and abetting our opponents will themselves become targets of war. That means that more force will be applied, we will be much more willing to take casualties, and whoever is targeted will quickly become isolated from potential support and supplies.

      For these reasons and more, I rather suspect a different outcome from the abortive police action that the US undertook in Vietnam...

      If evidence beyond a reasonable doubt proves that it is Bin-Landin who is responsible and if the Talaban continue to shelter him, the military option is considerably more complicated than "turning the country into a parking lot."

      No indeed it does not have to be at all. It then simply becomes a case of me wanting to destroy the wasp's nest in your yard.

      You see, you can have that nest there & I respect your property line. Then say, my hypotheical child gets stung. Turns out he's allergic & I ask you to do something about it. You refuse, saying that they're good for your flower garden. Then a month later they're swarming for some reason & my child ends up in the hospital & I notice you in your front yard snickering while we drive away in the ambulance...

      Do you think that I'm going to ask permission to get rid of that nest now? Or do you think you'll find it in your mailbox, possibly next to your teeth?

      I think this is a fair metaphor. Yes, I could call the police & have them deal with the neighbor & then wait & wait until something gets done, meanwhile my child could be stung a few more times. Or I could go & get rid of the nest myself & not say anthing, which leaves a righteously disgruntled putz living next door, just waiting for the chance to get back at me. OR I could solve the problem once & for all.

      Let's spell it out. We're NOT going to have another Vietnam in Afganistan (if that ends up to be where we let loose the fury, as it appears now) since our objective will be different. The USSR was trying to OCCUPY Afganistan. All that we will want to do is what we did to Iraq, destroy their capacity for being a nuisance. We could accomplish most of that without ever landing on the ground.



      Wait! This isn't a Parachute, this is a Backpack!
        I decided to not to reply to gregor42's node stating that retaliation is a simple matter. This is a painful time. Arguing a point sometimes does little more than inflame the passons of the arguers. I woke up this morning to reports of attacks against innocent Muslims and changed my mind.

        I do not believe Gregor's metaphor is a fair one. A better metaphor would be to imagine that you live in a neighborhood of abandoned buildings inhabitated by people who have nothing. The large abandoned building next to you has no heat, light or plumbing, but dozens of men, women and children live there. Somebody does you serious injury. You toss a burning bottle of gasoline into the building at 3:00am.

        A ruthless, violent response may be what is required. This response should not be unthinking or indescriminate. Obliterting Afgainistan, (if this is even possible) will kill people who have don't even know the WFC exists

        <BE>
        --mandog

      Out of curiosity. Pure curiosity. Do we (the US) support Israel because of industry or because a lot of our citizens are located in both Israel and the US? Akin to Puerto Rico and other close physically, but seperate countries? I'm just curious as to why Afganistan can feel like we're evil? For helping out a country that is pretty much an extension of the US itself? It sounds childish to me, but maybe I'm in a stage of shock, and I'm asking the "why" question now; it's been in my head for the past few days.

      I've been glum and just slow/down because of this, I cannot wait until this weekend to finally rest, be with my loved ones, and find out how my friends in the NYC are doing for sure.

      _14k4 - perlmonks@poorheart.com (www.poorheart.com)
Re: Re: The World Trade Center Tragedy
by footpad (Monsignor) on Sep 12, 2001 at 20:07 UTC

    First and foremost, I agree that retaliation is appropriate and necessary. I would hope for swift, but I pray for appropriate and just.

    I do not think it is appropriate to even suggest (and will not support) a nuclear response. I'm as angry, outraged, and hurt as anyone, however, much of that stems from my compassion for the victims, the survivors, and their families...and my complete inability to understand the complete disregard for innocent life that was demonstrated in these attacks. That same inability forbids me to consider a nuclear response, regardless of who instigated these attacks.

    When we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the general pubic was much less informed about the dangers and the environmental impact of those devices. Today's devices are much, much larger and I do not think any Administration that approved such a response would survive the week, let alone the next election. Furthermore, the outrage of the rest of the world would be completely justified.

    A military response is to be expected. Justice demands something...it does not, however, demand an eye-for-eye annhiliation of the innocent citizens and/or neighbors of the those that perpetrated this heinous act of aggression.

    Frankly, I would rather see a retaliation that does not place more Americans at risk...however, I understand that may be necessary to root out and surgically remove the cancer that spawned this.

    And, yes, you're right. We're all part of this, even those who live on the other coast or in different countries. We all know somebody who lost someone. Consider the whole six degrees of separation thing. These attacks will affect all our lives in one way or another. Because of this, the "Final Solution" is not an option.

    Respectfully meant, as always.

    --f

Log In?
Username:
Password:

What's my password?
Create A New User
Node Status?
node history
Node Type: note [id://111887]
help
Chatterbox?
and the web crawler heard nothing...

How do I use this? | Other CB clients
Other Users?
Others imbibing at the Monastery: (10)
As of 2014-08-30 07:38 GMT
Sections?
Information?
Find Nodes?
Leftovers?
    Voting Booth?

    The best computer themed movie is:











    Results (291 votes), past polls