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Re: Yet Another Appeal for Civility

by Your Mother (Archbishop)
on Mar 14, 2017 at 17:39 UTC ( [id://1184574]=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Yet Another Appeal for Civility

You say it’s idealism. There is nowhere in evidence proof that everyone getting along is an ideal. I’ve said a dozen times in a dozen ways, I’d rather be the target of f-bombs accompanied with useful code that helps me pay my bills than be the happy acquaintance of a genial hacker who contributes nothing at any time to my work. One is difficult but rewarding. The other is easy but meaningless.

I’m not here to make friends; at all. The strange part about that is, because of it, I have made a handful of friends here. Monks I like quite a lot and would gladly, oh, I don’t know, say, host at my home or support in a time of need.

This stuff, to me, is thought-police, social-cop, lowest-common-denominator, safe-space nonsense and in North America it’s reached a critical mass that backfired in delicious, if double-sided, schadenfreude in November. The only times I’m actively rude on this site is when I’m told I should be disallowed the right and even the judgement of what is or isn’t appropriate social interaction.

Trolls, anti-social folks, don’t give a rodent’s rectum about this sort of appeal. So it’s either preaching to the choir or stirring the normally well-settled feces. Consider that there are plenty of helpful, friendly, forgiving, patient monks who might find either a little irksome and that the moment the troll starts a flame war, the troll’s already won.

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Re^2: Yet Another Appeal for Civility
by perldigious (Priest) on Mar 15, 2017 at 14:42 UTC

    I don't necessarily disagree with what you said, but I feel the need to clarify on two points you made because I believe they are misinterpretations of what I was trying to communicate.

    You say it’s idealism.

    I think you are taking my statement too literally, the concepts of idealism and peace tend to go together, so my using the word "idealistic" in that context is more a figure of speech than me saying, "my way is the ideal way," which I would consider an arrogant and ignorant statement from anyone who made such an absolute claim since the world is rarely so easily divided between good and bad in such a binary manner. Oddly enough, in the real world, realism often ends up being more ideal than idealism, I fully concede that and it would agree with your point about productivity over civility. Since you seem to just be saying the former is more important than the latter I agree, but I also believe that civility can also lead to greater productivity and a lack thereof to less productivity, it depends on the specific situation. For example, a team of people that gets along well together in a civil manner can be far more productive than a team of people who are all assholes to each other and therefore don't work well together, but of course if one team member is constantly being detrimental to the group than it may be productive for civility toward that person to evaporate quickly. In modern corporate life at least stop inviting them to meetings or ever soliciting their opinion. :-)

    This stuff, to me, is thought-police, social-cop, lowest-common-denominator, safe-space nonsense...

    I'm suggesting nothing of the kind. There is a world of difference between an individual asking another individual or individuals to, "please ask yourself if you're being a dick, and if so, reconsider," and that same first individual asking an authority (or forming their own social pseudo-authority with others) to force the second individual or individuals to, "not be a dick as we decide to define being a dick or else face our extralegal authoritarian consequences."

    There is a good business case, productivity wise, for why so many companies invest so much money in things like Dale Carnegie Courses for their employees. I can't force anyone to stop being a dick, nor would I want to. What I can do is politely ask them, and suggest that it may very well be in their own best interest. People are far less apt to help someone out they don't like, or are at the very least likely to scale back the quality of help they provide, and all people deep down being irrational emotional creatures can decide they don't like or even hate someone for silly trivial reasons.

    But don't just take my word for it, hire perldigious for one of his motivational speaking/life coaching/executive getaway trainings today and he will prove it! There will be a definite impact on your bottom line, I can guarantee that based on my fee alone!
    *travel expenses not included, non-accredited, technically tax deductible as long as you aren't audited, not available in New York, California, Texas, or Utah due to outstanding warrants, click that last link at your own peril because yes this is totally me up to my usual antics of being unable to resist making a joke.

    Just another Perl hooker - And definitely not the kind with any $class whatsoever.

      My problem there is you didn’t ask an individual. You asked all of us. If someone steals something at work and the whole office gets lectured about stealing, I’m going to be injured that my integrity was called into question and the thief is going to make a note to be more careful. With the gaggle of anonymonks, there is not even a need to be more careful.

      You are obviously clear-headed with worthy goals on this issue. I just wanted you to know it raises my, at least, hackles and I do not believe this particular issue can be improved with this kind of approach. Being fair, boostering for Perl without trash talking Python, answering rude or stupid questions nicely with gentle corrections, etc… being the change you want to see, this works. Trolls enjoy being trolls for its own sake. Trying to talk them out of it is nothing but a gilded invitation to dig in and party.

      Update: removed errant comma.

        All valid points, thank you. I am certainly guilty of feeding a troll or several in my day, unintentional though it may be since I'm self diagnosed with DTDS (deficient troll detection syndrome) :-). I apologize for raising your and any other monk's hackles, that wasn't my intention. I agree that lecturing all for the misconduct of the one or the few is extremely annoying (I've worked long enough in corporate life to empathize), and in this case you and others correctly point out I am being that form of offender. Irritating managerial like behaviors are apparently sneaking in to me via osmosis. :-)

        Just another Perl hooker - And definitely not the kind with any $class whatsoever.

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