Re^11: Patience is a Monk Virtue (EU superstate)

[hippo]

The flaw in your reasoning is that the EU is not a super state.

It very much is. The EU creates laws which its member states must enshrine into their own legislation. That's pretty much the definition of a superstate. It also has its own bank, currency, court, police force, etc.

It's an economic block of independent members who can veto decisions

Only a small subset of the decisions can be vetoed. The rest are binding.

It's not engaged in military operations.

... but the Commission president has other ideas. (Update 18th Dec: he has got his way)

You may argue the pros and cons of the EU as an institution (and there are both) but its status as a superstate is incontrovertable.

[LanX]

I couldn't find a clear definition for superstate, so I retract.

My point is most institutions are bottom up not top down.

• the EU can't start a war or stop a member starting one ( like UK vs Iraq)
• the EU can't stop windy city boys causing a global financial crisis
• Europol can't arrest a London lawyer engaged in tax evasion schemes on British territory like Guernsey
• the ECB is controlled by a council of representative of national central banks.

Contrary to this

• Washington is able to stop Texas invading Mexico,
• the FBI can arrest criminal bankers at Wallstreet
• Dollar is not controlled by a council with representatives of a hypothetical California or Missouri central bank.

Finally the number of civil servants working for the EU is comparable to the one of the Birmingham City Council, not more.

[erix]

its status as a superstate is incontrovertable

As long as there is no "european" army it seems nonsensical to talk of a superstate. And I don't think such a European army (that is, an army commanded by the hugely unpopular civil servants in Brussels) is a feasible proposition, at least in the foreseeable future.

But by all means, let's work together in Europe, in defense as elsewhere.