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Use Perl wisely, not cleverly

by Anonymous Monk
on Feb 20, 2003 at 16:34 UTC ( #237127=perlmeditation: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??

We are not a cult, we are not a ring, we are not fundamentalist, but we are perl lovers. If this is a news to someone, now you heard it.

The most poisonous view about Perl is that Perl would be able to deliver everything, and Perl would be able to compete with Java or ASP.NET. That's pollution, and in online communities pollutions can spread really quickly, especially in certain communities where certain peoples are trying to turn it into a cult, and restlessly play the role of ring leaders, there are way too much effort has been spent on blindfold people.

Perl is a good regexp handler, other than that it is hardly anything the leader among all languages.

Perl is slow, uses lots of memories, does not support OO (unless you call ugly hacking support), does not support thread (again unless you call hacking ...), this goes on and on...

In case you never compared Perl with Java, and religiously thought that Perl will win some imaginary war against Java. I am more than happy to report my testing result: The test case iterated integers thru 1 to 10,000,000, and incremented each of them by 1. The time took by Perl and Java is 25:2, when c is 1.

Will Perl 6 save perl? N, O, NO. If this is a news, it is straightened out for you today. Perl is dead (in terms of a full-scale language) for years already, and has been cremated, if you expect a phoenix out of the fire, you are wasting your time, unless a BBQ chicken is an alternation for you.

Use Perl wisely, not cleverly. Remember this. I worked for lots of big names, and never saw a single serious project in Perl. Once saw it being used to create testing scripts, but as the testing cases become more and more complex, and needs threads, BANG, it is gone.

Comment on Use Perl wisely, not cleverly
Re: Use Perl wisely, not cleverly
by beretboy (Chaplain) on Feb 20, 2003 at 16:57 UTC
    This post interests me, because I like to hear as many opinions as possible. However I would like to know a bit more about about that benchmark. What version of perl/java was it run under? Also, If you feel so strongly about this, why post anonymously?

    "Sanity is the playground of the unimaginative" -Unknown
      Perl 5.8.0 and java 1.4.0_01. I posted it anonumously because of the power of the ring, the power of those persons who wish they are the ring leaders, instead of an ordinary Perl lover. I am not interested in any confrontation. If they love the truth, take it, if not, fine, not my business.
        Can you please provide something with which some other person might have a chance of reproducing your results? All else is claims and handwaving, not "truth". You are apparently as convinced of your own beliefs as the Perl "ring leaders" of theirs; at least, I don't see you behaving any differently. Where's your proof?

        Makeshifts last the longest.

        Howdy!

        Your words and your deeds stand in contradiction. Further, your apparent paranoia seems delusional. TINC.

        Your continued references to "the ring" is puzzling. Your implication that you speak "truth" is yet more hand-waving.

        If you were not interested in confrontation, why did you post?

        yours,
        Michael

Re: Use Perl wisely, not cleverly
by steves (Curate) on Feb 20, 2003 at 16:57 UTC

    How bold of you to post this anonymously.

      I am not bold as you already saw. I don't want any foundamentalist to jump on me. To be frank, don't you see the environment here is actually seriously polluted some time because of some people?
Re: [flamebait] Use Perl wisely, not cleverly
by l2kashe (Deacon) on Feb 20, 2003 at 17:14 UTC
    Since this is flamebait anyway, I'll pipe up as well with...

    Since you talk as if you come from the Java camp, I will hold that assumption.

    How much do you really know about Perl?
    How long have you been programming?
    How long have you been programming Java?
    How long have you been programming Perl?
    Do you know how to optomize your Java code?
    Do you know how to optomize your Perl code?

    The reason I ask, there is a Benchmark site (I cant rememeber for the life of me the URL, but it's a thorn in PM 's side), where the author compares I think about 20 languages to each other. If you look at l2kashe's scratchpad, Im pretty sure I have a function which created a hash of X values, and then reiterates and prints that list, thats run a few magnitudes faster than the Perl code from said site. Why? Because I knew simple optimizations.

    Anyone can spout numbers to support their view... How does that infamous quote go?

    Show me your flowcharts, and I'll remain ignorant of your data set.
    Show me your data set and your flowcharts are useless.

    Serious paraphrasing on my part, but the thought is there. If you wanna flame perl fine, you wanna remain anonymous, fine, if you want to actually have a conversation, print your code.


    /* And the Creator, against his better judgement, wrote man.c */

      Methinks you must be referring to Doug Bagley's Great Computer Language Shootout. This was a subject of discussion here... aah, I've managed to tease it out of Super Search: Perl speed VS. other languages.

      I wrote to Doug a while back and pointed out that a number of his Perl programs were sub-optimal. For instance, I said that his Fibonacci sequence generator was suboptimal, because a clever (sic) Perl programmer would Memoize the function for a nice speed boost. He replied, and I quote (hope you don't mind Doug) I do not allow caching for those tests because they are supposed to be done in the "same way", as I define in the methodology page.

      I fully accept this point of view, even thougth I don't agree with it. But it's hard to know to know where to draw the line, to figure out what it is you're supposed to be testing. My personal view would be along the lines of "the end justifies the means", if you get my drift.

      <update>What I mean by this is that I usually consider these comparative programming exercises more an interface issue than an implementation issue. That is, all I care about are the results. If it passes all the regression test, and is fast as well, I don't care if it's written on punch cards, or transmitted by Morse operators. Therefore I find the argument that they are supposed to be done in the "same way" slightly misguided. All that really counts are the verifiable results. And this is why Inline::C is so nice. It's so easy to code the inner inner loops in your slow (sic) Perl program and speed things up by an order of magnitude.</update>

      The flowcharts quote comes from Fred Brooks in The Mythical Man-Month. Recommended reading. The exact quote is "Show me your flowcharts and conceal your tables, and I shall continue to be mystified. Show me your tables, and I won t usually need your flowcharts; they'll be obvious."


      print@_{sort keys %_},$/if%_=split//,'= & *a?b:e\f/h^h!j+n,o@o;r$s-t%t#u'
Re: [flamebait] Use Perl wisely, not cleverly
by theorbtwo (Prior) on Feb 20, 2003 at 17:16 UTC

    I'm very interested to see your benchmark code, and platform. In purticular, did the perl code have a c-style for loop, or a perl-style? What version of perl was it? Did your C code actualy perform the computation at all, or was it optmized out of existance? Ditto on the Java version. Why do you think this about perl6? Have you seen any benchmarks for parrot? (Try parrot performance vs.(trivial test) the good, the bad, and the ugly to start with. Yes, the perl5 numbers are terrible, but it's outside of it's core competencies by a fair bit. Also, if you change the style a bit to be more idiomatic, it helps quite a bit.) They're quite impressive, and we're still working on them. Did you know that http://amazon.com and http://etoys.com run perl? How about the Human Genome Project? Have you run runtime size comparisons with Java?

    If you're doing heavy numeric computing, don't do it in Perl. Do it in C. Integrate the C with perl. But for ordinary, day-to-day computing, perl is a very good choice much of the time.


    Warning: Unless otherwise stated, code is untested. Do not use without understanding. Code is posted in the hopes it is useful, but without warranty. All copyrights are relinquished into the public domain unless otherwise stated. I am not an angel. I am capable of error, and err on a fairly regular basis. If I made a mistake, please let me know (such as by replying to this node).

      If you're doing heavy numeric computing, don't do it in Perl. Do it in C. Integrate the C with perl.
      Were you talking about PDL, perchance? :-)

      Makeshifts last the longest.

      Hmm, what about using SSLeay for your numeric computing. I thought it was a respectable compromise when I read up on it :) But then, if you want UBER fast, you shouldn't even waste time with C++, you should go straight for C.

      Hello mister anonymous, usually you don't claim to know so much when you visit.

      smiles

Re: [flamebait] Use Perl wisely, not cleverly
by herveus (Parson) on Feb 20, 2003 at 17:22 UTC
    Howdy!

    I see that an Anonymous Coward came out from under its bridge to attempt to incite mayhem. How small and sad.

    The first two paragraphs are simply clueless spew. They are so vague as to be nearly semantic nulls.

    The next one starts off promisingly, but drives off onto the content-free zone.

    Slow? By what metrics? Compared to what? Execution time? Development time?

    Memory hog? OK. It's not the leanest tool in the box, but if you have tight memory constraints, you maybe need to pick a different tool. It is excessive?

    No OO support? Are you still using Perl 4? Or is it just that your pure vision of OO does not match the pragmatic Perl implementation?

    No threads? My, my. You must be on an ancient Perl, for certain. No other explanation comes to mind that does not impugn your intellect and character.

    Next you turn your fevered imagination to an artificial and contrived "benchmark" to claim that Java is an order of magnitude "faster" than Perl. Your "report" of your "testing" is notable for the complete absence of auditable data. Little things like the code you used for each case. Absent that, the claim is so much hand waving.

    Now the Perl 6 dismissal... more hand waving with no substance.

    Finally, unsubstantiated personal claims that appeal to a non-existent authority.

    Wow. Let me pick out the useful bits.

    Perl is a good regexp handler
    Use Perl wisely, not cleverly.

    Signal to noise ration: 1:30? (or am I an optimist?)

    yours,
    Michael

    BTW: Had the screed been posted non-anonymously, I might not have downvoted the post, but anonymous screeds earn that large, negative reputation.

      How small and sad.

      Just like your reply. Strange isn't it?

      -- A different anonymous monk

Re: Use Perl wisely, not cleverly
by ignatz (Vicar) on Feb 20, 2003 at 17:23 UTC
    > ... and religiously thought that Perl will win some imaginary war

    LOL... I had this sudden image of some sort of programming version of Paradise Lost with thousands of Perl Programmers flying around with wings battling the forces of Java and being cast into The Pit:

    If thou usest Perl; But O how fall'n! how chang'd
    From one of Java, who in the happy Realms of Light
    Cloth'd with transcendent brightnes didst outshine
    Myriads though bright.

    So spake th' Apostate Anonymous Monk, though in pain,
    Vaunting aloud, but rackt with deep despare.

    With suddenly tilly rising up and saying
    Better to reign with the CPAN, then serve with the JDK!
    ()-()
     \"/
      `
    
Re: Use Perl wisely, not cleverly
by chromatic (Archbishop) on Feb 20, 2003 at 17:48 UTC
    I worked for lots of big names, and never saw a single serious project in Perl.

    I worked for a big name and never saw a single serious project, or a project done well. I've also never seen China. Arguing a negative from personal inexperience is a very tired logical fallacy.

      You worked for a big name, very well, my big names are: Sun (currently), Motorola, Tandem (if you know what it is) and first at WANG (if you remember it).

        I have a bigger name for you but I best not say it lest I pollute the place.

        You missed the point. It does not matter the size of your company. Your company is not the end-all be-all of programming. Sorry.

        My company programs almost exclusively in C/C++. That doesn't mean that other languages are garbage. I could say something like "I work for a big name company and I have never seen a serious project in Ada/Cobol/FORTRAN/Java/Perl/VB/Lisp/Assembly/Pascal/SmallTalk/SQL et cetera et cetera". And it would not mean anything. My company programs embedded systems, and on the projects I have been working on, C is the best language. This of course doesn't mean that all other languages are useless. Just that we didn't choose those languages for this particular task. Get it?

        In addition, I find it hard to imagine someone who makes such a strong claim about benchmarks who has no apparent inclination to show the code. I could say that I ran a test in which Java took 32GB of RAM and Perl took only 3K. It's a pretty pointless claim unless I'm providing some evidence.

        It's also a pointless claim to say you've worked for "big name" companies without revealing your identity. I could claim that I work for (or have worked for) IBM, Hewlett-Packard, Apple, Microsoft, Motorola, Intuit, Raytheon, Lockheed-Martin... But what does that really prove to you?

        Whoops, sorry, missed the "Do not feed the trolls" sign. My bad.

        Edit: s/identitity/identity/;

        my big names are: Sun (currently), Motorola, Tandem (if you know what it is)

        I believe that it is a type of bicycle.

        --
        John.

        Hmm, that's funny. I worked at Compaq after they bought Tandem. Maybe theres a reason they got bought. It might be the same reason Compaq got bought :)

        Even then, I've seen 2 rather pricey perl products come in the door while at Compaq. (and Compaq reeks of M$)

        Funny the way that works. By the way, I hate to tell you this. But M$ is running around buying (yes buying) all of Suns clients. Hell, they're even trying to buy off other countries.

        I guess it just goes to show. There is a place and time for everything.

      Arguing a negative from personal inexperience is a very tired logical fallacy.

      Thank you thank you thank you!

      ---
      demerphq


        Otherwise we could have some great arguments here:

        I have never written a program therefore programs are not written.

        I don't know Perl therefore Perl is useless.

        I have never heard of Randal Schwartz, therefore he doesn't exist.

        I could go on, but I won't. --
        Regards,
        Helgi Briem
        helgi AT decode DOT is


      Reason: Aristotle delete, pointless flame

      For more information on this node visit: this

Re: Use Perl wisely, not cleverly
by Jenda (Abbot) on Feb 20, 2003 at 17:54 UTC
    Statistics is the art of lying by means of figures.
       -- Dr. Wilhelm Stekhel

    You can prove anything with a "properly" selected "benchmark". I'm sure if you run the same insane "benchmark" in C you'll get much better results than in Java ... does it mean anything? Do you really think it's wise to chose a language based on something like this?

    Unless maybe if you do some heavy numerical math. And even in that case you'd better do just the math in C/Fortran and the rest in something more high level. How important will it be that your program takes five minutes to do what your competitor's need ten if it takes YOU 6 months more to release it?

    How much time do your applications spend doing simple math? How many times did you actually need to do anything even remotely similar to what your "benchmark" measures?

    Jenda

    P.S.: If you did believe Perl is dead you would not need to post this. The people who use the strongest words fear the most.

    I like the OO in Perl. I like the functional features in Perl. I like that I can be both strict and dirty in Perl, just as I need at a moment. You can like what you want, we'll see the results.

Re: Use Perl wisely, not cleverly
by perrin (Chancellor) on Feb 20, 2003 at 17:58 UTC
    You appear to be quoting from one of my posts when you talk about competing with Java and ASP.NET. I guess you haven't read my other posts, or you would know that I have done a much more substantial benchmark than you, and Perl won. In a test using Resin (one of the fastest servlet containers around) and mod_perl, fetching data from an Oracle database and displaying it on a page was faster in Perl. There are no doubt specific tests where Java would be faster, but most of my work centers around building web sites and using databases, and Perl definitely seems to be equal or better than Java there.

    As for the "big names" you worked for, I doubt they are as big as the companies that do use Perl every day to power their sites: Yahoo, Amazon, Ticketmaster/CitySearch, etc. Incidentally, these are also the companies that look like they might be able to make a profit on the web.

Re: Use Perl wisely, not cleverly
by dragonchild (Archbishop) on Feb 20, 2003 at 18:35 UTC
    Some "big names" that I have worked for that use Perl for "serious project"s:
    • Motorla - every single non-RF test that is run on the software that runs its CDMA base stations is through an application I worked on. Pure Perl. (Was client-server, OO, extensible on-the-fly, has its own macro language, etc.)
    • Verizon Wireless - an integration project of all of VZW's network and inventory information in its switches was done in pure Perl.
    • Mastercard - one of its bread'n'butter reporting tools is in Perl/MySQL.
    Are those names big enough for you?

    ------
    We are the carpenters and bricklayers of the Information Age.

    Don't go borrowing trouble. For programmers, this means Worry only about what you need to implement.

      Hey, you worked in the Texas facility? Good to know. We used Perl, and some legacy left, but it is gone now. Howdy You.
        I worked at the Arlington Heights plant in Chicago. BOOST is still running and still doing every single non-RF test that the CDMA BTS undergoes. The XC and MM testing groups were also in discussions with us to adapt BOOST for their purposes. BOOST was also used during 9/11 to try to find live mobile phone signals using a portable BTS.

        Perl is alive and well in Motorola, at least in Chicago. Dunno about you Texans, though.

        ------
        We are the carpenters and bricklayers of the Information Age.

        Don't go borrowing trouble. For programmers, this means Worry only about what you need to implement.

      Your big names are not big enough for me, I am sorry, your experience seems mostly in the telecom/wireless industry, not IT industry. Well, but as You are/were Motorolan, and I were, so I don't want to dispute with you. If you worked in the Texas facility, maybe we even knew/know each other personally. I really love beef rib, how about you?
Re: Use Perl wisely, not cleverly
by demerphq (Chancellor) on Feb 20, 2003 at 20:18 UTC

    The most poisonous view about Perl is that Perl would be able to deliver everything, and Perl would be able to compete with Java or ASP.NET.

    Actually it does compete with them. Every day. Quite well too. And judging by the number of perlish features that were either built in, or sneaked in to them I'd say that at least a few non-morons (unlike yourself) in the respective companies are well aware of it, and doing their best to compete back.

    Ultimately competetion like this is a good thing. If the next language I learn includes features from them all (perl6 ?) then my personal world will be a better place.

    Incidentally do you plan to post your benchmarks, or is the assumption that most of us have made (that you are a jackass troll) correct?

    ---
    demerphq


      I respect your loyalty, but I never heard a competition against Perl ourtside the Perl community. If you look at Perl's user base, it becomes crystal clear we don't even care the existance of Perl. If you look at CPAN, look at all those modules that claims that they are not the full-implementation of so and so, you will know why.

      Vietnam tried to compete against us, NK did, China did, Soviet did, and bin Laden and Sadam is doing it, but did they win? will they win? do we really care?

        You do see the parallel here from your own well I take it? Your current employer, Sun, also didn't care much about the existence of competition in the form of Linux and Open Source and had quite a wonderful year in 2002. I see Sun servers going out doors instead of coming in them as they did a few years ago. Are you sure we don't all have our own wells we sit in? Don't assume anyone ever has the advantage of being the only one on a mountain. It will kill you every time. I prefer to enjoy many technologies and not be blindly wed to any one. Nothing on this earth is sacred or assured.

        For the most part, this thread has decently constructed sentences, and I understand the points (even if I don't agree with them at all). But this post has me baffled. I have no idea what you're getting at here.

        "I never heard a competition against Perl ourtside the Perl community" ... "we don't even care the existance of Perl" ... "all those modules that claims that they are not the full-implementation of so and so" ...

        What are you trying to say? And what does U.S. war history have to do with Perl?

        Vietnam tried to compete against us,

        Check your history. The Vietminh ignomiously kicked the US Army out of their country at gun point. They didn't compete. They won. As for the rest, well, can you show me one piece of historical writing that indicates that the US decively beat any of them? No. Cause it didnt happen (yet.) And for some of them, well, god help the world if the US and them get into a real fight. There wont be much left.

        What all of the above has to do with perl or java is beyond me. What it does do however is prove that you are a troll.

        Go away.

        ---
        demerphq


        FYI, in a poll by the second largest German computer magazine (which focuses on business IT) taken by about 7000 readers, nearly all of whom stated to be professionals, revealed that the most valued (albeit least requested) skill in German companies' IT departments is Perl.

        Perl doesn't need hype. Of course, if you pick a Java career, I won't mind - one less competitor.

        And if you look at CPAN, you won't even get as far as getting to the halfassed modules before you notice that Java does not even have such a thing as CPAN. Set one up and we'll have a talk about how many halfassed Java libraries find their way onto it in a few years.

        Makeshifts last the longest.

Re: Use Perl wisely, not cleverly
by BrowserUk (Pope) on Feb 20, 2003 at 23:04 UTC

    I'm not at all sure whether everything you say regarding Perl -v- other languages is entirely wrong, though am pretty sure, to my own satisfaction at any rate, that not everything you say is correct. However, I'm more interested in your motivations for saying what you said?

    You remind me of the (faith agnostic here) religious zealot in the old-time movies who parades up and down in public places with a placard saying "Judgement day is coming", and yelling "You're all sinners, and you're all going to hell". I always wondered why anyone would do such a thing?

    I mean, if his beliefs are correct, then when judgement day comes, he is going to Heaven and the disbelievers are heading to that other place. What is he trying to achieve? Is he trying to save their souls? Or maybe he's just gloating.

    It always seemed to me that rather than concerning himself with the fate of those that do not share his beliefs, he should spend his time concerning himself with what happens if his own beliefs are wrong. What will be his fate if he has it wrong and the 'one true faith' is not his faith, but some other faith?

    What happens if the god of that other faith is as vengeful as the one he believes in, and when that judgement day comes, he is the one headed to hell?

    To summarise, it seems to me that your post was an attempt to convince yourself that your own beliefs are correct and that the time and energy you expend on the penance of verbose syntax, whilst wearing the bonds of strong typing, on your shotgun-imposed march to toward the true light are actually worth it. If your right, your on your way to heaven and many of us will have to pay the price for the delinquent fun we've had with Perl.

    What if your wrong though...

    Then there is the possibility that your idea of Heaven is my idea of Hell, but that's another discussion.


    Examine what is said, not who speaks.

    The 7th Rule of perl club is -- pearl clubs are easily damaged. Use a diamond club instead.

Re: Use Perl wisely, not cleverly.
by gmpassos (Priest) on Feb 21, 2003 at 03:12 UTC
    Well. First, I think that you don't understand much about Perl, and Java too. How about you learn more, study more, and after this you will be able to make some real comment. Opinion without informations doesn't have value!

    About the speed of threads of Perl. Well, send the test codes, and you will see that all the "lovers of Perl" will have a open mind to analyze it.

    Other thing, never say that Java is fast! It isn't! It's the slowest language that exist, and sun know that. I'm a developer of Java too, in the security area, and we know that Java is very slow. Some times we need to implement things in C/C++, and link to Java, because of this.

    About the OO. Well. Perl has OO, and has everything that OO can bring. If you think that Perl doesn't have OO, or have missed something, tell us. Is not hard to implement anything on Perl, since every one can do this! We always have our code!

    And if you don't know, sun help a lot the Perl community, since they respect us! If I'm not wrong they made some donation for CPAN with a new server when CPAN was slow!

    About Perl is dead. Humm... I think that something that is always growing, and being better, is alive. With all the respect of Java, since I use it too, I think that Java is more dead than other thing. Don't forget that Java is only Java because they made a good marketing (is a commercial initiative of sun). and Perl don't need, since it self made the marketing.

    You say that "never saw a single serious project in Perl". Well, this only show that you don't know nothing about nothing. Man, Yahoo! use Perl, and was fully made in Perl. Without Perl Yahoo!, and other web sites, will doesn't exist. No more comments!

    Graciliano M. P.
    "The creativity is the expression of the liberty".


      Reason: Aristotle useless noise

      For more information on this node visit: this

        How about send the codes that you made to test the speed of thread on Perl and Java?!
Re: Use Perl wisely, not cleverly
by mowgli (Friar) on Feb 21, 2003 at 09:12 UTC

    OK, here is yet another reply from someone who likes Perl a lot and uses it frequently for all sorts of projects (both privately and professionally).

    When I started reading this post, I first thought it might be an interesting, insightful post that would offer some food for thought on when Perl would be the best solution to get a job done or when other languages might be prefurable, as well as some thoughts on style, maintainability and the like. I'm rather sad it turns out to be just flamebait, though - and it really seems to be just that, with claims like "Perl has been dead for years already" etc. that are then backed up with statements like "I worked for lots of big names" (implied: "so I know everything about programming, or at least more than you who reads this") instead of some actual facts.

    You are entitled to your opinion, of course, and if you don't like Perl or don't want to use it for anything beyond simple scripts (if even that much), that's perfectly fine, but why do you come to a site dedicated to discussing Perl when you don't actually want to discuss anything? Just saying, in effect, "Perl sucks and if you don't agree, you're naive and / or a moron" is simply rude and serves no purpose. Really, I can understand why you posted this anonymously.

    --
    mowgli


      Reason: Enlil Delete: Useless noise. No content, and poor grammer

      For more information on this node visit: this

        I've got to admit I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. A dragon in a good sense or in a bad sense?

        --
        mowgli

Re: Use Perl wisely, not cleverly
by simon.proctor (Vicar) on Feb 21, 2003 at 09:29 UTC
    Maybe Perl is slow for you because you forgot to use it cleverly.
      Maybe Perl is fast for you because you didn't know (or didn't want to know, which is kind of typical behavior among cult members) there was other wisely picked solutions.
        Tell me how you pick wisely and I'll tell you how I do.

        Makeshifts last the longest.

Re: Use Perl wisely, not cleverly
by shirkdog_perl (Beadle) on Feb 21, 2003 at 13:36 UTC
    Fellow Monks, we must not loose our focus on such threads. We come here to practice our devotion to Perl. This is the second posting I have seen which incites a riot among the ranks of the Perl Elite.

    Like I said the other day:
    BOTTOM LINE: Perl may not be the right solution for every job. However, there always is a solution in Perl.

      Reason: LAI Delete: pointless flame

      For more information on this node visit: this

      This is the second posting I have seen which incites a riot among the ranks of the Perl Elite.

      The true "Perl elite" wouldn't bother with such flames. In fact, I think at least half of them have a very low opinion of this site's level of discussion.

        And perhaps that is what makes them the "true Perl elite"--they are elitist. Another word for that is "snobs".

        They have forgotten what it is like not to know all the answers; they beleive that their opinions are the only opinions; they think of Perl as 'their' language and resent that newbies, ex-VB programmers, AOLers, web-designers are discovering 'their' language and revile them for it.

        Perl is designed to help people learn the bits of programming they need right now without forcing them to learn the techniques they aren't ready for. But when they are ready for them, Perl tries to be there too. We just don't tell the beginners that the speedometer on their golf cart wraps around several times.

        Larry Wall. 02/09/2002

      If "the ranks of Perl Elite" is the XP point system used here, this view is really shallow.

      Most of the questions asked here are normal questions, and most of the answers given here are normal answers. Most of the time, to write up a reply does not require cleverness, or to be super.

      Because nobody knows everything, because there are monks just started to learn Perl... all those create questions => and you may happened to know what he/she doesn't know, so you come to help. It is just that simple.

      Did he/she ever beg your answer or comment, NO, if you don't answer, someone else will. Of course, if you provide an answer and be polite, doesn't matter whether your answer is right or wrong, he/she appreciates your effort. If you think it is a must for him/her to feel grateful, sorry, there is no obligation.

      Most of the solutions provided here are normal solutions (otherwise as merlyn suggested VERY strongly, it would be perl2exe'd, oh, no, he said that is no longer a good solution any more, see it would become quite a worry for you to know the answers, if they are not "normal" ones), there are more than ten thousands, or maybe hundred thousands people know those answers, you answered it:
      1. because you type more fast
      2. because you see the question first
      3. because you are in a mood to answer
      4. because you have the guts to answer
      5. ...
      6. ...
      7. NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON KNOWS THE ANSWER
(jeffa) Re: Use Perl wisely, not cleverly
by jeffa (Chancellor) on Feb 25, 2003 at 15:46 UTC
    Normally i would just shake my head, mutter something like *tsk* *tsk* and move on. But this is some funny stuff. Sad, but funny. Who do you think you are? You, a registered user, post this crap anonymously and expect us to suddenly drop Perl and start embracing Java? Maybe you haven't read Re: Re: Perl falls victim to shifting trends(Opinions/Comments From The Other Side) yet ...

    This would make more sense if you were selling us .NET instead. Why oh why does one Open Source solution have to attack another? Shouldn't we be combining our efforts to find ways to make all of these Open Source languages work together? Can't you see that Microsoft revels in these banalities? Or are you really just spreading their FUD?

    Personally, i think Java is tedious language, but you don't see me posting Perl advocacy over at JavaJunkies. Since i don't really like Java (hey, i gave the language a fair shot - i even got certified!), i don't bother to share that opinion with that community. They don't need it. We don't need yours.

    hardburn posted a clever little anecdote along the lines of "Java is good for building castles, Perl is good for building huts." I couldn't agree more. Unless you have a team of experienced Perl programmers, you have no business implementing the solution in Perl. Java is a great language for experienced and novice programmers, Python spans that gap even better. I just happen to love Perl not because i invested time to learn the language, but because it is such an expressive language that it allows my programming skills to grow. I am not constrained by bondage and discipline and therefor i am allowed to invent new things, even at the expense of re-inventing a wheel. With great power come greater responsibility. No matter what language my PHB of the year requires me to use, i will always use Perl (behind his/her back) to make my life easier. I suspect a lot of others do this as well. Perl is dead? Long live Perl.

    One thing i have noticed around here is that most of the questions that are asked and answered deal with 'hut' like problems. These 'serious projects' you speak of probably fit in the 'castle' category, and as such, are out of the scope of this community and in the hands of the PHB's that 'run the show'.

    So, do us all a favor, next time you get the urge to sell Language X at Language Y's communtiy .... DON'T! Use your time learning more about one or the other and leave the conversation for "beer talk" when you take a break.

    Oh by the way, regarding your "benchmark", you just compared two huts. The Java hut may be faster, but it also has an extra moat, drawbridge, and dungeon that you don't need. :P

    jeffa raises the phoenix from the ashes and gets back to making impressive huts

    "real programmers program ... the others complain"

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