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Bestowing blessings upon monks?

by rozallin (Curate)
on Mar 01, 2003 at 00:07 UTC ( #239597=monkdiscuss: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??

Once in a while I come across nodes or replies that are so humourous or insightful that I would like to send a small blessing of perhaps two or three XP to the author for it. Although the present system allows a possibility of the author gaining 1XP when I upvote, I really feel that this isn't enough, especially when the node has been somewhat overlooked or I get to the node early and it has a low reputation.

Knowing that the C!ing system that Everything2 uses would put more stress on the already stretched Perlmonks servers than would probably warrant it, I wonder if it would be possible and practical to set up a system where the higher level monks have the ability to bless/curse users, maybe from say, level 8 or 9 to minimise occurences of "popularity upvoting/downvoting"(*).

What do other monks think about this? And what, if anything, do you do when you come across a deserving node? Would you rather receive a kind compliment by /msg as opposed to a XP reward?

Thoughts/comments/gentle cluebats?

(*)I'm not implying that because anyone is below bishop that they would be more likely to engage in popularity upvoting or downvoting; neither am I suggesting that everyone above level 8 would never even contemplate such a thing. Not all the saints act like saints ;)

--
Rozallin J. Thompson
The Webmistress who doesn't hesitate to use strict;

Comment on Bestowing blessings upon monks?
Re: Bestowing blessings upon monks?
by data64 (Chaplain) on Mar 01, 2003 at 00:18 UTC

    I think XP is overrated. Don't get me wrong, I understand your sentiment, but I do not think it is worth putting in more effort into enhancing something that is meant more for amusement than anything concrete.

    If you really like a post, then a private message to the poster would be probably most appropriate. You could also post a public reply saying that you liked it and why. Who knows, you might even pickup some XP with that post :)

    Just my 2 cents

      Perhaps XP is not that meaningful - but that's not so good, because the moderation model in PM is build around XP, so the quality of PM rests upon XP. Perhaps XP cannot be that much improved - being just too simple linear measure - but then, there should be some other mechanisms for moderation. I know that one is just simple social interaction - but I believe that an automatic mechanism can always improve it.
Re: Bestowing blessings upon monks?
by mrpilot (Curate) on Mar 01, 2003 at 01:58 UTC

    Perhaps in addition to the normal votes that monks earn as they go up in levels, you could earn "super votes" or something. Perhaps starting at one "super vote" when you get to level 5 or 6, and increasing by one each level that you gain. These "super votes" could be used as a "bless" or a "curse" and when used would automatically give or take some amount of XP (or even some sort of karma rating or something) depending on how it was used.

    I have no idea if this makes sense to anyone, or if it would be implementable. Just my $0.02.

    MrPilot
Re: Bestowing blessings upon monks?
by Coruscate (Sexton) on Mar 01, 2003 at 02:14 UTC

    I agree that XP is already over-rated as it is, but if you wanted something like this, don't implement new features. Just make it so that we can vote on the same node more than once. This could always be overdone, but who knows. In that case, downvoting should be limited to a one-time thing, while upvoting could be done multiple times. But, I have a feeling that if you love a node, others will love it as well and follow with an upvote as well. Which just nullifies any real need for this. :) I'm (over-)satisfied with the current system, I say keep it as it is.


    If the above content is missing any vital points or you feel that any of the information is misleading, incorrect or irrelevant, please feel free to downvote the post. At the same time, reply to this node or /msg me to tell me what is wrong with the post, so that I may update the node to the best of my ability. If you do not inform me as to why the post deserved a downvote, your vote does not have any significance and will be disregarded.

Re: Bestowing blessings upon monks?
by artist (Parson) on Mar 01, 2003 at 03:00 UTC
    I am fine, the way it is.

    The best thing if you like it too much,

    • Send a very good message to the poster, to encourage the poster at its maximum. This may have higher value than XP for the poster in many cases.
    • Taking the inspiration create something better, which is longer lasting and with better effect, so we all can have more, which is more beneficial to the monastery.

    Higer level monks have already the abilities to edit or delete the nodes. Which is much better to bless/curse the users.

      Please note the perspective.
    • The perspective is towards the overall system and not the intelligent users.
    • Users gain maximum benefit when the focus is on the better system to benefit average user, rather than biased towards users who have thought bursts.
    • It also avoids hurting personal feelings and flame-wars etc.
    • Most importantly, the focus of the monastery is maintained on its misson
    • At the higher level, monks would like to do something better and guide fellow users to higher path of knowledge rather than flaming/cursing them.
    • System functions very well currently.
    Also as a gainer of XP, what would you do with few more XPs ? It's better to have knowledge spread, participate more in term of quality, and recognition will come if that is what you want. Monks who have lead our path here, has gone through the similar system and are well respected.

    artist

Re: Bestowing blessings upon monks?
by Limbic~Region (Chancellor) on Mar 01, 2003 at 03:36 UTC
    rozallin,
    I have felt for a long time that having categories to vote on a node would be beneficial. For example:
  • Good of Perl community
  • Ability to solve problem as stated
  • Creativity factor
  • Readability/Understandability factor
  • Accuracy
  • etc

    This gives the author an idea of why you upvoted/downvoted them in the event that you cast your vote, but did not reply to the node. It also allows them to evaluate their own postings by seeing which categories they are doing well in and which they are not.

    This would allow you to cast a vote for each category, in effect, "blessing" an author if you felt the node was outstanding on more than one level. The reputation for the node would be either the combined total of all categories, or if a good formula could be found - a weighted total of all categories.

    In reality - I do not believe this mechanism will work and is why I have not posted it previously. It sounds great in theory though IMHO. I just give it my ++, refer to it in any post where it is relevant, and /msg the author with a thank you.

    Cheers - L~R

Re: Bestowing blessings upon monks?
by FoxtrotUniform (Prior) on Mar 01, 2003 at 05:30 UTC
      Although the present system allows a possibility of the author gaining 1XP when I upvote, I really feel that this isn't enough, especially when the node has been somewhat overlooked or I get to the node early and it has a low reputation.

    Please to /msg the fortunate author with a little note of thanks when you come across such a node. As far as I'm concerned, one /msg of thanks is worth more than a hundred XP: it takes much more effort, and comes across as a much more personal token of appreciation.

    --
    F o x t r o t U n i f o r m
    Found a typo in this node? /msg me
    The hell with paco, vote for Erudil!

Re: Bestowing blessings upon monks?
by Mr. Muskrat (Abbot) on Mar 01, 2003 at 15:10 UTC

    A kind word spoken
    publicly or in private
    brings infinite joy.

    -- Mr. Muskrat

Re: Bestowing blessings upon monks?
by jdporter (Canon) on Mar 01, 2003 at 16:02 UTC
    ...to send a small blessing of perhaps two or three XP...
    ...higher level monks have the ability to bless/curse users...
    I sympathize, but I am against the proposal.
    What it would mean is that some users' opinions are "worth" more than others, and that's the kind of class system PerlMonks does not need.
    Also, I think it's the monks at the higher levels who tend more to believe in the unimportance of XP. And it's true - XP are pretty meaningless. I'd much rather have someone reply to my posting with "That was brilliant!" or "You saved my ass", than to get another XP or two. If a node really is worthy, it'll generate XP for the author anyway.

    jdporter
    The 6th Rule of Perl Club is -- There is no Rule #6.

      What it would mean is that some users' opinions are "worth" more than others

      Well, aren't they? Without casting aspertions on their worth as people, which would mean more to you, an "Wow, I never thought of that. Nicely done" from Merlyn or Sickboy? Some user's opinions ARE worth more, either because they have more experience with Perl, or they have a better bead on what the Monastary is and how it works.

      If you troll around the bottom of the XP chart, you'll find something odd: monks who seem to know a great deal about perl, but just don't blend. It reminds me of a manager I had a few years back. He was brilliant, had great skills and tons of experience, but his social skills were so lacking that he drove his entire team away. No one wanted to work with him, and in the end, his childish arrogance cost him his job.

      Whe we're typing code into the machine, it doesn't matter how hard we hit the keys or what the semantic values of our variable names connote, because the machine has no feelings. In the real world, however, how the message is delivered is at least as important as the message itself. Consider these replies to a hypothetical question about split:

      • Jesus, you didn't put much effort into this, did you? If you'd read perldoc, you'd see that when called in scalar context, split returns the number of fields found, not their values. Now, next time you have a question, RTFM before bothering us.
      • From perldoc: In scalar context, returns the number of fields found and splits into the @_ array. Use of split in scalar context is deprecated, however, because it clobbers your subroutine arguments.
      • Here's the trouble: you're calling split in scalar context, so it's returning the number of fields, not the values of the fields. Try this:
        @fields = split $line;

      You tell me, monks. Which response deserves the most votes? All three give the same information, but in three different ways. Which one is going to help grow the Monastary and add to the community? Which one will leave someone pissed off and unlikely to return?

      Seems to me that giving Monks at Level 7+ one "Bless" per day that's worth 2-5 votes could help promote the best nodes, and rid us of the worst. Plus, limiting it to the highest levels will insure that only monks who've put in the time and effort to build the Monastary will have access to the extra power.

      -Logan
      "What do I want? I'm an American. I want more."

        Well, aren't they?
        Which would mean more to you: a "Wow, I never thought of that. Nicely done" from Merlyn or Sickboy?
        No, as a matter of fact, they aren't different in value.
        Sure, it can be a big thrill to receive "nicely done" from merlyn. But I think it is at least as gratifying to receive heart-felt thanks from someone you've helped get through a sticky programming problem or discover an aspect of perl power they've never seen before.

        In fact, if you want to earn beaucoup XP, you'd be much better off writing for the latter kind of reward than for the former.

        jdporter
        The 6th Rule of Perl Club is -- There is no Rule #6.

(wil) Re: Bestowing blessings upon monks?
by wil (Priest) on Mar 01, 2003 at 16:29 UTC
    I propose that Perlmonks turns into a virtual blackjack table where we can "double-down" on posts and users that we despise. It will cost you double the vote, of course, but it'd be more than worth it to get that enormous satisfactory feeling you get when you downvote that monk you really don't like.

    Of course, I am only joking .. or am I? You decide with those pesky little buttons of radio. :-)

    - wil
Re: Bestowing blessings upon monks?
by blackstarr (Pilgrim) on Mar 02, 2003 at 13:02 UTC
    ++ For making my baincells fire! Personally I think the whole XP system is far too "easy."

    If I look back at my own posts and the XP they have garnered for me, I am astonished. None of them even pretend to any technical knowledge of Perl (because I'm still crawling & have yet to walk), and in my own opinion weren't THAT great. Yet I've come a long way (XP-wise) in a short time.

    I came here to learn Perl, and in the process am reading an amazing amount of posts, technical and otherwise, and I get the (subjective) impression that XP is not really THAT closely associated with Perl guruship (?new word? can I copyright?), but more with "community".

    Don't get me wrong ... I like getting XP ... it sure boosts my ego ... but other than that it's worth zero. If, on the other hand, someone replies to my message, letting me know what they thought ... that boosts my ego AND gives me an idea of WHAT other's think of my thoughts, and this helps me to evaluate my own ideas against those of the broader community. (I frequently still stick to my own ideas, at least on non-technical issues, but at least it give me perspective.)

    In other words ... you can drop the XP, but please let me know what you think (of what I think ...)

    So Long
    blackstarr

Re: Bestowing blessings upon monks?
by Courage (Parson) on Mar 03, 2003 at 08:13 UTC
    when you report a bug via perlbug system, and it gets fixed, a message comes that you should not tell your sympathies to a person that fixed your bug via perlbug but rather tell him directly.
    The funniest thing here is that this systems assumes that you want to say something like "I owe you a beer" or "I want to have your child" :)

    Same thing applies to your thoughts, I think. You could just bring a couple of beer.
    Or whatever...

    Courage, the Cowardly Dog

Re: Bestowing blessings upon monks?
by Steve_p (Priest) on Mar 04, 2003 at 15:31 UTC

    Unfortunately, I believe that people may abuse it. Here's a scenario:

    "Foo the initiate" set's up an alter ego in PerlMonks to help upvote himself. This may be a painfully slow way to get XP, but in theory it could be done. Now, let's let "Foo the initiate" set up an alter ego that will send him 2 or 3 XP to himself. If this is possible, then, "Foo the initiate" could set up a quick script to give himself free XP every day. Combined with a script that automatically logs "Foo the initiate" in daily (an easy 182 XP), "Foo the initiate" gains 912 to 1277 XP for writing a couple of scripts and contributing nothing to the site. Add a robot for the voting, and you could literally become a Saint without even trying (after some quick Excel analysis, following the averages and voting a maximum of 20 times a day, you would end up with 2945XP).

      Or you could just take the Paco route ;)
Re: Bestowing blessings upon monks?
by Petras (Friar) on Mar 05, 2003 at 14:54 UTC
    There are actually a few things I would like to see updated in the voting-xp system:
    • I want there to be an option for zeroing out my vote. By that I mean if I read something at the top of the Monestary Gates and think I like it and ++ it, then down the page find something even better and more deserving, I cannot un++ the first article without refreshing (lots of Monks live overseas where refreshing takes several minutes). It could either be something weird like check boxes with javascript onchange commands to make them act like radio buttons that could be unselected, or some middle radio button to save/cancel my vote before it is submitted (not afterwords, of course).
    • Also, for areas like Seekers of Perl Wisdom, the Monk who started the thread might be given a few extra votes (maybe even SUPER votes) for the reply that was found to be most useful. Sort of a way to reward those who went the extra or best mile.
    • And my boss is calling, so I'll end this node now!
    • Update Or we could start getting really crazy (e.g., "dumb") and give out XP based on how many poll questions you answer, or better yet, if your vote matches the winner.
    • Oh, and we could vote on different home nodes' style and content
    • What about extra XP for being on long enough to make it to the top of the "Other users" box?
    • And we could give *LOTS* of experience to people who nonsensically update their posts because they are sitting at their keyboard and are bored....
    Please ignore everything following the word "Update." Thank you--the management
    I should burn some of this code into firmware. Then I'd be a Chip Monk.
      I want there to be an option for zeroing out my vote. By that I mean if I read something at the top of the Monestary Gates and think I like it and ++ it, then down the page find something even better and more deserving, I cannot un++ the first article without refreshing

      Go to User Settings and turn on the 'null vote' option.

      --- print map { my ($m)=1<<hex($_)&11?' ':''; $m.=substr('AHJPacehklnorstu',hex($_),1) } split //,'2fde0abe76c36c914586c';
        Hey, you've done this before! I like learning new things. Sorry I'm out of scratches for the day. But if you were able to bless this with some super upvotes, when I hit level four I could have some more scratches for you! (It's just a joke).
Re: Bestowing blessings upon monks?
by shirkdog_perl (Beadle) on Mar 06, 2003 at 05:47 UTC
    Rather interesting,
    Server down time is evil :-)



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