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Re: Larry Sighting

by woolfy (Hermit)
on Dec 21, 2003 at 11:51 UTC ( #316171=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Larry Sighting

The time to complain (which can be the best contribution of all) is now and, I mean, why not take it to the top?

I disagree. There is no time to complain! A massive amount of people complaining would be the best way to frustrate Larry and all the others that are working hard on Perl6.

Like ysth wrote, it is a mailinglist and not a usenet group. People posting many complaints (instead of adding constructive posts) make the mailinglist utterly useless. So instead of complaining, you could better read all those messages and try to understand the discussions (the first time I'll understand one of those pieces of code, I know I'm not a newbie any longer).

If you want to do more, you could help them, like testing the latest alpha or beta version and reporting what went wrong and maybe even how you thing those errors could be fixed. When you are able to do that, you know that complaining is not the best thing, but that joining them in the development is.

The developers really know that we are all waiting for Perl6 for a lot of years now. Complaining that Perl6 is still not here would not help, really, it would do the opposite. We are not waiting for a depressed Larry, a sad Vladimir Lipsky, a sobbing Dan Sugalski, a screaming Leopold Toetsch nor an offline Luke Palmer. Not to forgot all those other ones that write magically difficult posts, work on utterly wizardlike code, define philosophical concepts.


Comment on Re: Larry Sighting
Re: Re: Larry Sighting
by hanenkamp (Pilgrim) on Dec 21, 2003 at 14:43 UTC
    The time to complain (which can be the best contribution of all) is now and, I mean, why not take it to the top?

    I disagree. There is no time to complain! A massive amount of people complaining would be the best way to frustrate Larry and all the others that are working hard on Perl6.

    I disagree again. I would have to agree with ackme rather than woolfy (at least on the point of complaining in general). The reason Perl's utility is so great is because folks like Larry Wall and the other major contributors listen to complaints and try to figure out how to solve them--look at the RFC system which is essentially an orderly method of submitting complaints and suggestions to the Perl6 team.

    At the same time, Complaining that Perl6 is still not here would not help is an obvious fact. Of course, this isn't really complaining, but simply whining. Whining will not help, but complaining is the process of presenting real solid problems that exist in the implementation so that those with insider knowledge can try and fix the problem before it becomes part of the cruft of Perl6.

    As for the rest of woolfy's comments, I agree. If you have the time and interest, work towards helping in concrete ways. Play around with the code, learn it, test it, and try to find solutions to the problems you discover. This is the core of the community project. But, let's not forget the entrepreneurial spirit which has made Perl as useful as it is, which involves listening and solving complaints.

      I guess we agree more than your first line suggests. I can't imagine Larry (or whoever) being happy with a 1,000 complaints that Perl 6 is not there yet. That would be just whining.

      And in case you really want to complain, please make it that special type of complaining, the type that is called "being constructive", containing more than just one line, something that attributes to Perl, with a solution to a problem, or with a well-defined error report and test results.

      Complaining, whining? Word games!

Re: Re: Larry Sighting
by Anonymous Monk on Dec 21, 2003 at 22:02 UTC
    People posting many complaints (instead of adding constructive posts)

    And there's no such thing as a constructive complaint?

    Welcome to the Internet, enjoy your stay.

      And there's no such thing as a constructive complaint?

      My Webster's New World Dictionary describes the verb "complain" as:

      1. to express pain, displeasure, etc.
      2. to find fault
      3. to make an accusation

      I wonder how you can constructively express pain or displeasure. How you can constructively find fault. Or how you can constructively make an accusation.

      I hope this is all semantics, but I find "complaint" to be never constructive. Maybe this is because of my Dutch background, where complaining is part of the country's nature.

      Welcome to the Internet, enjoy your stay.

      I hope you don't want to imply here that the Monastery should become more like newsgroups or other forum sites, where complaining and flaming is the norm.

      Liz

Re: Re: Larry Sighting
by jryan (Vicar) on Dec 21, 2003 at 23:07 UTC
    People posting many complaints (instead of adding constructive posts) make the mailinglist utterly useless.

    As long as the complaint is solid, non-trivial, and grounded in reality, I don't see why it would be wrong to post it. It would be a step up from much of the usual discussion on that list. ;)

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