Re: Re^2: New Section: Obfu Art Gallery?

[jacques]

{grin} I knew you would reply. Maybe it would be best if you explain why this would be hard and time consuming, since people often ask for new sections. Can't you just add an extra link to the top. And then start collecting the art? I am sure there's more to it than that. What would creating a new section entail?

[tye]

Implement it, and you'll have a much better idea. (:

It took me several hours to turn the Perl News section into a place people could post to. And it already existed as a section and I didn't even implement much of what is implemented for other sections (you can't "approve" news items, for example).

There are a ton of features involved with 'sections'. Several of the sections are nearly identical, several are less so. Lots of the common code is factored out. Some of it could be factored out more effectively. But there are still a ton of entries to make and things to tie together and the process is rather time consuming because you're patching a live site without an automated 'roll out' system. And this stuff is harder to do from where I'm typing this node (giving my kids their bath) both in terms of display/keyboard issues and (more so) in terms of concentration.

And the proposed section (as I already covered) isn't like any existing PerlMonks section.

If you just want another 'page', not really a 'section', then it'll be a lot less work to 'do it yourself', either here (your home node or such) or elsewhere.

But my objection has more to do with continuity of design for the site. While I'm not volunteering to do this work, bolting on something as specific as this, well... as proposed, it would fit in like something bolted onto the side. I'd like to have it, though.

And if I wanted it more, I'd put it on my home node (or just use the root node of this thread for it) and encourage people to /msg me suggestions for additions. And as time went on I'd adjust how the list is broken up into sublists, etc. It'd still be bolted onto the side, and it would get done.

And if it got fairly big and I wanted to let people vote on things, then I'd write a little web app and move the current list into some kind of database.

There aren't any fields in the current PM database for 'reputation as obfu art'. And if someone wanted that information in the PM database, I'd tell them to come up with a more general design so we could do more 'best of' pages... And then I'd tell them to implement it off of PM (where it will be much less work for them to do and they won't have to be much bothered by my or other gods' ideas of 'good design' or my frequent 'lack of time' for such).

We've been trying for years to get PM development improved and moving along. We've made a lot of improvements and we've also taken a lot of steps that didn't do much good (at least not yet). So every once in a while we get a flurry of changes. The backlog of things that really should be done is huge.

I've taken a bit of flack for my lack of progress in some things over the years. As I see it, I often get this flack because I'm often the one doing the most (as little as it is). So I've become pretty non-apologetic about it.

The site limps along rather successfully. About the best way to ruin the experience for yourself is to get hung up on something you want changed or (the lack of) the process of change.

[demerphq]

We've been trying for years to get PM development improved and moving along. We've made a lot of improvements and we've also taken a lot of steps that didn't do much good (at least not yet). So every once in a while we get a flurry of changes. The backlog of things that really should be done is huge.

I think this is somewhat of a vicious cycle. Unless there are Gods that have the time and the inclination to actively shepherd pmdev I think its inevitable that new code comes in flurrys and that we will end up with a backlog. Developing to unstated guidelines (code quality expectations), with minimal (constructive) feedback is as you know extremely difficult and can be quite frustrating for the people involved. If you post a patch and then never hear anything, or observe that of the posted patches only a small number have had any form of feedback you quickly become disenchanted with the process and eventually give up. As for debating code in pmdev why bother if the perception is that the odds are such that regardless of the debate the code won't get applied anyway?

Of all the things that have been done to pmdev the only one that I think will have any real effect and alas also one I've not seen yet attempted is the addition of a god that dedicates themselve solely to dev related issues. Such a god should not participate in other godly duties, and should step down when/if they can no longer dedicate the required time.

My position on all this is well known to you, and im not replying to rehash the CB chat we had recently. I recognize that the gods have lives too, and cannot currently respond to patches as they might wish. However I think its important to realize that this situation is fixable by finding the right person or people to manage pmdev who do have the time and inclination.

Anyway. Ill keep posting patches regardless I suppose. At the very least nobody on the site can tell me to post a patch when i bitch about stuff. :-)

[tye]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll just throw this response out rather bluntly. I appreciate your motivation and I'd like to point out that I'm not upset by your arguments. If I say something strongly below, it isn't out of frustration or hurt feelings, it is trying to make a point several ways in hopes of getting the point across without spending even more time composing.

Of all the things that have been done to pmdev the only one that I think will have any real effect and alas also one I've not seen yet attempted is the addition of a god that dedicates themselve solely to dev related issues.

Actually, I've done that, hmmm, 3(?) times so far. Plus I've tried to do it several more times than that.

One of the things that made a real difference was providing more ways for pmdev to test their own code. You probably noticed part of the improvement, but I don't think you noticed a big part of the difference. A bunch of your patches that got applied would still not be applied right now if that hadn't happened.

[They] should step down when/if they can no longer dedicate the required time.

By that same argument, since pmdev has no purpose but to propose patches, shouldn't members resign if they haven't proposed a patch recently? (: Actually, I feel the same way. I'd prefer that members of all of the privileged groups resign if they notice that they no longer perform the duties (for a lot of reasons). But that has rarely happened and the times I've hinted at "cleaning up" any memberships, the resistance was pretty clear, understandably. I'm not sure what major benefit there would be to such a policy on member behavior, though.

Such a god should not participate in other godly duties

I really don't see "other godly duties" as being a distraction preventing development work. There just aren't very many other godly duties. I certainly don't do much that is "godly" other than occasional flurries of development. For example, I've got my third copy of the same "/msg" suggesting a new poll because I haven't done a thing with the first two copies of it in the past week(s). The other day, I saw one of those rare "godly" things that I felt should be done. I searched out Petruchio for feedback and we parted with him apologizing for not helping out much and my response was "none of us help out much", because I don't help out "much" either lately. Of course, I haven't actually done that "godly" thing it yet.

Developing to unstated guidelines (code quality expectations), with minimal (constructive) feedback

Yep, that's one of my frustrations with pmdev, they hardly ever comment on each other's code quality, design quality, or provide constructive criticism (it usually boils down to one person saying "looks good to me" -- something that I nearly ignore since it doesn't convince me that real consideration was put into it). Oh, you were trying to criticize gods there, weren't you? If only gods do this kind of stuff, then I don't think there will ever be much use for pmdev, we'll just have to keep adding people to gods if we want them to write code (and that won't scale). Sure, gods have some powers so "their votes matter more" (if you will), but if pmdev is going to work, it needs to contain members that think about broader design goals, code quality issues, etc.

Only gods can apply patches. This means that it is important that pmdev try to have an ownership attitude and do as much of everything else as possible. And we could try to keep adding gods until we get an active group of gods doing development (we had that for a short time, and restoring that was my goal years ago) but that will (again) be a short-lived improvement unless pmdev takes off during that little window of opportunity.

And they need to listen to the feedback that they do get. One of your more recent patchings got comments from me and one member of pmdev. We both said that we didn't see the point...

I completely see your points about needing more from gods. I used to feel guilty about not giving more. But when I started getting "grief", that pretty quickly ended that. I've never complained about any one volunteer not doing something fast enough. "I don't ask for schedules from volunteers. It doesn't do any good and it annoys the volunteers." I get rather annoyed when I see people asking Larry "when will Perl 6 be done". Duh. It depends. Do people really think there is a reasonable answer to that question?

The solution to pmdev is for pmdev to take ownership of every development challenge related to PerlMonks and demote the gods to mere automatons who simply apply the patches that the pmdev community has designed, considered, discussed, written, tested, and agreed to.

However I think its important to realize that this situation is fixable by finding the right person or people to manage pmdev who do have the time and inclination.

And I nominate you. Go forth and shepard pmdev. I'm glad you're still fighting. Get an actual group in pmdev working together so patches have a consensus behind them so I or other gods can just apply the things instead of having to find an hour or more of time to concentrate on whether the design fits in, will have bad effects in the long run, etc.

Maybe other gods feel comfortable applying patches without going through those steps. If they do, they mostly aren't. :) When I've tried applying patches without going through those steps, I've usually regretted it and usually ended up spending more time in the end as a result. So I usually don't apply patches lightly.

It's been over a month since I've spent any time on PM development. I hope to get my development platform fixed again soon, but I'm not holding my breath. I also have several other things that, frankly, are more important and that have also been sitting too long in the to-do bin.

Thanks again.