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Re^3: Perl Babysteps 1: Your First Simple Script

by Juerd (Abbot)
on Dec 30, 2004 at 15:52 UTC ( #418283=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re^2: Perl Babysteps 1: Your First Simple Script
in thread Perl Babysteps 1: Your First Simple Script

You leave me no choice.

FLAME ON.

A Tutorial should be easy and should be low level, specially if it is a beginner-tutorial like this one.

Yes, a tutorial should begin at the beginning. But that doesn't mean it has to be easy or targeted at little children. Of course, if this is indeed meant for young children, then I take back what I said and can only say it's a good tutorial.

I really don't think bringing idiot non-programmers to PM has anything to do with this tutorial. It's not the OP fault if it does. Anything in the whole world can bring idiots here, even the holy perldoc.

If we start having tutorials like this, we get another breed of programmers here: the non-programmers who think it's elite or cool to write a script that displays their own name in an infinite loop. This forum is already loaded with an overwhelming number of basic questions, and the total amount of time the less ignorant people, who want to help people, is limited. This forum doesn't have a special way to see before opening a node what level a question will be, so many have already left PM and no longer answer questions here. I haven't left, but I sure do answer much fewer questions.

I do think the OP of this thread is doing something that could damage the Perl community, exactly because they posted this on PM instead of somewhere else. There are already way too many tutorials that create bad programmers, and I thank random deities they're not on the best known Perl forum.

What? What happened? There are nice thing done in PHP out there, as there are nice thing done in Perl, Java and even ASP

Oh, yes, even Tcl can be used to create a big application in. It's entirely besides the point.

In any language, nice programs can be made. Even with a big stinking chunk of functions and lack of modern dynamic language features, like with PHP. However, the quality of PHP is not why it attracts idiots. It's the community and the way documentation is written that do that. The Perl community is often seen as an elitist community from the outside, but I prefer that to something that wastes human resources the way the PHP community does.

The ways of the PHP community influence how PHP is built. There is a reason that PHP does not have lexical variables and will probably never have them: it would be too hard to understand for the target audience.

PHP make certain jobs extremely easy to do and still runs with good performance.

Mediocre performance. And it makes certain jobs easy, yes. Jobs like calculating an easterdate. It's a nice templating language, though, except it is useful only for dynamic content. Before I realised that a web server specific templating language is stupid, I created PLP. Nowadays I want to drastically change PLP, but can't, because I made some of the same mistakes that PHP made. Fortunately, almost nobody uses PLP. Unfortunately, PHP is now the most popular web programming language in the world. I stress that PHP isn't good for *programming*.

Why Perl should be such a hard time to learn?

Does not have to be a hard time, or even hard. There should be something to filter out the stupidest of beginners. I think scrottie was right when he said:

PHP got rid of the most of the dimwit perl programmers who aren't capable of doing anything that can't be done by calling a function with some arguments.

The fuckwads that leave huge wreaking messes of code laying around their employers office for other people to clean up.

Those littering security vulnerabilities with such density that "hackers" now days hardly have to sneeze to uncover access to a site's database or filesystem.

PHP has raised the quality of the average Perl programmer higher than 10,000 bullets could have dreamt of. Even lining the most stupid Perl programmers in a row and getting multiple knock downs from a single bullet couldn't have realized those returns.

No one wants to feel like they're stupid, no matter how stupid they are, and PHP lets them live their dream of being a web programmer.

and by doing so I could had accomplished much more and then maybe be less-idiotic

I think you mean less ignorant, not less idiotic.

FLAME OFF.

Juerd # { site => 'juerd.nl', plp_site => 'plp.juerd.nl', do_not_use => 'spamtrap' }


Comment on Re^3: Perl Babysteps 1: Your First Simple Script
Re^4: Perl Babysteps 1: Your First Simple Script
by DaWolf (Curate) on Dec 30, 2004 at 16:53 UTC
    You leave me no choice. FLAME ON.
    Not my intention. Sorry if I offended you, it wasn't the intention of my reply.
    Yes, a tutorial should begin at the beginning. But that doesn't mean it has to be easy or targeted at little children. Of course, if this is indeed meant for young children, then I take back what I said and can only say it's a good tutorial.
    Pointless. There are levels of tutorials. There are beginner-type tutorials, intermediate and so on...

    You sound like we should make the process of learning perl very hard, so it will attract only inteligent people. I can't see any use to this. Knowledge and experience are things to be shared with people who doesn't have them.

    One thing that can kill a language to a programmer is the learning curve. I know because I've quitted to learn Java or C because of this, and because I felt that learning Perl and PHP would be easier.

    And it did, so what? Are Perl and PHP idiotic languages compared to C and Java? Not IMHO.

    If you prevent people to learn the language by making the process hard you fail to bring newcomers to it. And even if you bring idiots they might become wise programmers later. But you have to give'em a chance for this to happen.
    If we start having tutorials like this, we get another breed of programmers here: the non-programmers who think it's elite or cool to write a script that displays their own name in an infinite loop.
    You can't state that. You are trying to say that IT WILL happen in this or that way. And even if it does, brig them on! Let's share knowledge with them, let's make them wise! Let's explain to them why they should do this or that.

    As posted on a bunch of other nodes here, there's no point to be rude just because you have more knowledge than other people.

    What is really idiotic is stating "You should do THIS because it's the right way to do it. And boy, I see that A LOT in here.

    If you don't have the patience to answer the "idiots" just don't do it. But also don't start call them idiots with a superior look in your face, because that hurts, and hurts a lot.

    BTW, the first piece of code I wrote was a BASIC thing that does:
    10 print "Er" 20 goto 10
    So...? Ok, it's an idiot piece of code. Stupid really, but it was my name running on my MSX screen (a B&W TV) that made my interest for code to arise.

    Today I'm far better than that (thanks PM and a bunch of other communitys like PHP Builder, Code Freaks, and so on), but if someone had told me "Oh you idiot. You do this you'll never be a good programmer" I'd be selling hot dogs, or working as a bank teller or any other thing.
    It's the community and the way documentation is written that do that. The Perl community is often seen as an elitist community from the outside, but I prefer that to something that wastes human resources the way the PHP community does.
    You are generalizing a whole community of programmers because of some. I don't like to be elitistic. It's a dull, dumb, stupid thing that doesn't bring nothing good to anyone.

    Besides, yes, PHP has a lot of flaws in it's documentation, but at least it tries to put things in a nice, clear way, wich was the same thing the OP did for Perl on this node. Why spanking them for that? That's not a good reason to do it.
    Mediocre performance.
    Well, not IMO. I've made a PHP script that parses text and checks against more than two million words in a database and then format them with bold and colors. It runs in less than one second. That's a good performance, IMO.
    And it makes certain jobs easy, yes. Jobs like calculating an easterdate.
    So what? Why should a easterdate calculation function be mocked?
    It's a nice templating language, though, except it is useful only for dynamic content.
    Well, I live for dynamic sites, so it suits me perfectly. Am I an idiot because of this?

    Perl is also excellent for building dynamic sites, so...? Why "building dynamic sites" is seen as a poor implementation of code? Have you ever imagined the web without dynamic content?
    I stress that PHP isn't good for *programming*.
    What a nasty thing to say. I still didn't found any reasonable arguments to make such a serious statement.
    Does not have to be a hard time, or even hard. There should be something to filter out the stupidest of beginners.
    Like what? A degree? A certification? A letter from the guy's parents? There isn't any good filter you can apply. If you do this you will be excluding people and thus making the community smaller.

    Even newbies and rookies often contribute with good questions and even good answers. That happen because they are free from some vices that experienced people got from programming and so they can think out of the box and present us things we never thought about it. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. Put only people with a specific background here and you'll have a constant line of thought that isn't always healthy.

    Allow differences, allow newbieness, allow idiots. Put a smile on your face when you see a newbie question. Try to remember the time when you were the newbie and you did your best to improve. The time when you thought for hours before posting a question and still were affraid of being critiscized for your newbieness.
    I think you mean less ignorant, not less idiotic.
    That was a little joke. Jesus, man, have some humour...
    FLAME OFF.
    For THAT I thank you.

      You sound like we should make the process of learning perl very hard, so it will attract only inteligent people.

      Not very hard. Just a little harder than very easy. Intelligence says nothing about quality of life, but it does say something about which jobs are good for you. And yes, I do think we'd benefit from trying to attract intelligent people, and not-attract (not saying "get rid of") people who need instructions like Nice work! You have begun to learn Perl by writing a complete program which gets input from a user and prints output including a modified version of their input. Stop for a minute and think about how cool that is. That's something I'd expect in an interactive Hangman, after having guessed the word "elephant". Or no, not even kiddyware says Stop for a minute and think about how cool that is.

      By the way, let's pretend *we* are intelligent and spell the word correctly.

      One thing that can kill a language to a programmer is the learning curve.

      A good thing, IMO. I am convinced that anyone who is afraid of a learning curve will continue to be afraid of learning later on, even after having learned the basics. These are the people who still ask basic questions after having used Perl for over a year and are then offended if you refer them to perlintro or Beginning Perl.

      Are Perl and PHP idiotic languages compared to C and Java?

      Perl and PHP are dynamic languages, C and Java are not. The comparison isn't terribly useful. Perl, PHP, Ruby, Python are all in the same realm and yes, PHP is an idiotic language compared to any of the other three I mentioned.

      there's no point to be rude just because you have more knowledge than other people.

      I agree. But I do want to add that there's also no point in being overly friendly and hand holding, because that'll only make them depend on us, while many are very capable of finding out how things work on their own.

      If you don't have the patience to answer the "idiots" just don't do it.

      For some, it's patience. For others, it's just time. But you'd get back both groups if there were many less newbies asking questions that are answered by tutorials (good ones, like this one and this one).

      Ok, it's an idiot piece of code. Stupid really, but it was my name running on my MSX screen (a B&W TV) that made my interest for code to arise.

      Please note that there is a difference between writing a small program that helps you realise how cool programming is, and thinking the small program you wrote itself is cool.

      You are generalizing a whole community of programmers because of some.

      Not I am generalizing the Perl community, others are. It's not my opinion that we're a bunch of elitist arrogant people. Only some of us are. (I won't deny that I may be one of them.)

      [PHP] tries to put things in a nice, clear way

      The result is certainly clear and friendly. But not correct, good enough or nice. The only thing about PHP documentation that is better than Perl documentation is that they have this short domain with handy shortcuts to documentation, like http://php.net/print. But that's no longer a problem, as I now used tnx.nl for that, with Perl documentation: http://tnx.nl/print :)

      I've made a PHP script that parses text and checks against more than two million words in a database and then format them with bold and colors. It runs in less than one second. That's a good performance, IMO.

      Good enough isn't the same as good. And this really depends heavily on the machine you use, and its load. I am absolutely certain that the same program written nicely in Perl will run even faster.

      Well, I live for dynamic sites, so it suits me perfectly. Am I an idiot because of this? Why "building dynamic sites" is seen as a poor implementation of code?

      I said PHP is useful only for dynamic content, and I said that PHP is idiotic. This does NOT imply that having dynamic content is stupid, or that people having dynamic content are idiots.

      Have you ever imagined the web without dynamic content?

      No. But I do note that today, mostly initiated by PHP, many web sites that effectively serve static content are now dynamic. A program/script is run for every requested document, and this puts heavy load on the server. At first, this isn't a big problem, but when you start to wish for real static content (because the server is under too heavy load), it's usually too late, and more complex changes are needed. This is because although PHP is really a powerful templating language, it can't easily be used outside the web server context.

      I still didn't found any reasonable arguments to make such a serious statement.

      Have a look at this and the pages it refers to.

      If you do this you will be excluding people and thus making the community smaller.

      It'd limit the growth, but it would not actually make anything smaller.

      Allow differences, allow newbieness, allow idiots. Put a smile on your face when you see a newbie question.

      I do all of that. But that doesn't mean I think we should encourage non-programmers to become programmers. I'm convinced good programmers are more or less born like that, and that they only need to learn to use the appropriate tools.

      Try to remember the time when you were the newbie and you did your best to improve. The time when you thought for hours before posting a question and still were affraid of being critiscized for your newbieness.

      Sorry, I never went through such a phase, and can't imagine what it would be like, either.

      Juerd # { site => 'juerd.nl', plp_site => 'plp.juerd.nl', do_not_use => 'spamtrap' }

        By the way, let's pretend *we* are intelligent and spell the word correctly.
        I'm not american, so english is not my native language, as it's not for many people in the Monastery.

        Actually the simple point that you actually took the time to correct my english, indirectly implying I'm not *intelligent* just because I'm not a native english speaker/writer and the following statements show me it's time to stop:
        ... PHP is an idiotic language... (compared with Perl, Python and Ruby)
        I'm convinced good programmers are more or less born like that...
        Sorry, I never went through such a phase, and can't imagine what it would be like, either. (you were never a newbie)
        I'm cool with all of these because I know that time probably will prove you wrong and eventually you will learn to be a humble person.

        Have a nice 2005. I rest my case.
Re^4: Perl Babysteps 1: Your First Simple Script
by Anonymous Monk on Jan 11, 2005 at 22:45 UTC
    Because the world needs "elitest" programers with a little bit of skill who think they know everything sitting in judgement on who should and should not learn how to code? No! Do us all a favor and shhhhh.... Its not a club or an elite group. People can do what they want, if that rattles your cage tough.
Re^4: Perl Babysteps 1: Your First Simple Script
by Anonymous Monk on Mar 19, 2007 at 00:12 UTC
    Well probably it's too late but... whatever. Fisrst.. I think that no matter how pro you r you shuld not FLAME on other about being lame or doing lame tutorials. The fact that forums are full of idiotic, stupid teens is that now PC and i-net connection is available for most of the ppl around the world. It's normal the number of stupid lames to increase. But no matter how many they r nor how stupid and lame they r we should not underestimate them. Or everyone of us were just gurus @ the begining ? Yea ? And we know everything. So why we shoul wish to others to spend so much time and work to learn what we already know ?Give to ppl something easy to understand, give them someting simple and the clever one will expand his knowledge in time. I hate when some GURU says well it's too lame.. of course you always were smart, you know everything all the time and other's tutirials are simple and not intresting to u cuz u r PRO. What ever.. we humans will be always like this... Wish to all of u more social contacs.. not virtuals. Peace.. Awasys try to understand others and never blame them for they did especial if they r beginners. For they writer.. thanks a lot. I don't know anyting about perl but this tutorial helped me a lot in some way. And then some did take the red pill...
      A lot of mistakes... sorry it's 6 a.m.

      Firstly, you are right. I probably should not have posted my flaming rant.

      Secondly, you prove my point better than I could ever have.

      Juerd # { site => 'juerd.nl', do_not_use => 'spamtrap', perl6_server => 'feather' }

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