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Java Vs Perl

by Anonymous Monk
on Jan 11, 2005 at 03:50 UTC ( #421182=perlquestion: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??
Anonymous Monk has asked for the wisdom of the Perl Monks concerning the following question:

Why is Java programmer are well paid? What do Java programmer do as compared to Perl Programmer?

Considered by bradcathey: "delete altogether". Vote: 17/2/30.
Unconsidered by davido: 17 keep votes blocked reaping.

Comment on Java Vs Perl
Re: Java Vs Perl
by jbrugger (Parson) on Jan 11, 2005 at 06:27 UTC
    A bit of a weird 'question' i'd say. Are all Java programmers well paid?
    IMHO there is no such thing as a 'Java programmer'. A good developer can pickup the basic syntax of any language in about 1 tot 2 weeks. In about 3 weeks to a month he should have the knowledge about the most basic libraries to be fairly productive.

    A good developer can be well paid, it doesn't really matter what programming language is chosen, that depends on what he's (or she's) trying to do.
    I do think a good developer is looking at all the pro's and cons before he chooses the tool. (eg. what kind of app is it, what is the development-time, does the app need a dynamic language etc.etc.)

    A developer is someone with a mindset who chooses the right tools and methods to get the job done. What would a programmer be?
Re: Java Vs Perl
by Ovid (Cardinal) on Jan 11, 2005 at 07:40 UTC

    As a programmer who is comfortable in both Java and Perl, the question that seems more relevant to me is "why do Java programmers have so much corporate funding?" The answer, of course, is because Java programmers have Sun driving a huge PR machine that directly promotes their language. As a grant manager for the Perl foundation, I can only wish for something like that.

    Cheers,
    Ovid

    New address of my CGI Course.

Re: Java Vs Perl
by Mago (Parson) on Jan 11, 2005 at 11:15 UTC
    Java Is Hazardous to the Health of Your Projects:

    "Java, which is currently the most hyped programming language, fails to make the cut under these criteria. It's too new and it's proprietary. Does that mean that it shouldn't be used? No, but it does mean that it should be used only if the planned life of the application is relatively short -- definately less than five years. As yet, Java does not have the track record for stability that other programming languages have. Although there is a lot of marketing momentum behind Java right now, until a defined and stable standard emerges, it is a high-risk option compared with standardized languages."

    The discussion I highlight above is an excellent reason to use C, Perl, Python, Ruby (etc.) in favor of Java, C++, C#, Visual Basic (etc.) on projects that are to be developed by a small team, and maintained for a prolonged period.

    That said, there is a real reason why Perl is special, both as a language and as a community. Technical reasons include Perl's expressiveness and dynamism. Community reasons include a highly portable, cross platform, open source definition and implementation.


    Mago
    mago@rio.pm.org

      As yet, Java does not have the track record for stability that other programming languages have. Although there is a lot of marketing momentum behind Java right now, until a defined and stable standard emerges, it is a high-risk option compared with standardized languages.

      Ok, let's just assume this is all true and sensible.

      The discussion I highlight above is an excellent reason to use C, Perl, Python, Ruby (etc.) in favor of Java, C++, C#, Visual Basic (etc.) on projects that are to be developed by a small team, and maintained for a prolonged period.

      Since this is Perlmonks, I'm not going to discuss C, Python or Ruby. But I do want to discuss Perl. There's nothing wrong with Perl, but I don't think you should suggest it has attributes it doesn't have. Perl doesn't have a standard, and it doesn't have a track record of stability. In fact, in both deparments, it does worse than Java. Just look at two hot things of the last decade: threads and Unicode. Perl has had several thread implementations, and several Unicode implementations, and despite having worked on it for years, it still doesn't get it right.

      Don't get me wrong, I'll pick Perl over Java 11 out of 10 times myself. But that's because Perl has so many goodies, I'm willing to deal with the fact Perl is a moving target, and upgrading to a new version isn't always painless.

      But neither your post nor mine has anything to do with the original question.

        Ok, the original question is: "Why is Perl programmer are well paid?"

        This isn't a important question !

        The real important question is: "What do Java Project do as compared to Perl Project ? What would be better ?"

        Mago
        mago@rio.pm.org

        Just look at two hot things of the last decade: threads and Unicode. Perl has had several thread implementations, and several Unicode implementations, and despite having worked on it for years, it still doesn't get it right.

        Uhhh ... I've been programming exclusively in Perl for over 4 years and on and off for 8 years prior to that. I have never once programmed anything threaded. Ever. In fact, I would say that most programmers in the world have never knowingly handled threading issues.

        And, no, I don't count Java's auto-threading of all applications to be relevant to the discussion. Threading is much harder than managing database connections and programmers writing in Java seem to get the latter wrong a heck of a lot more often than programmers writing in Perl.

        As for Unicode ... what does 5.8.x not do that it should? (Discount regular expressions for a second because, AFAIK, Perl has the best Unicode regular expression support anywhere.) I work with web apps that have to seamlessly render pages in at least 5 languages, with one up to 12 languages. CJK, Arabic, and Latin-1 are all handled without a problem. More often than not, it's Oracle or Sybase that screws it up, not Perl.

        Being right, does not endow the right to be rude; politeness costs nothing.
        Being unknowing, is not the same as being stupid.
        Expressing a contrary opinion, whether to the individual or the group, is more often a sign of deeper thought than of cantankerous belligerence.
        Do not mistake your goals as the only goals; your opinion as the only opinion; your confidence as correctness. Saying you know better is not the same as explaining you know better.

Re: Java Vs Perl
by r34d0nl1 (Pilgrim) on Jan 11, 2005 at 11:37 UTC
    The programming language is a matter of tool that people use to get their job done. Perl is more than a simple tool
    once that it has a very large community, support - runs basically everywhere and can be used to work
    as a bash program or as a front end to a website.
    Java is not so flexible. Have you ever tried to open a file and parse it using java?
    I also have never seen a poem wrote in Java. I used to work with Java but I prefer Perl;
    Perl can also be an OO language and is much faster depending on the job you are doing
    Answering your questions: developers do basically the same work
    no matter what language they use (but Perl is much more flexible).
    And Java programmers are well paid? - Don't worry - Perl programmers are well paid as well ! :D
    and finally: Perl is funnier ! :p
      I also have never seen a poem wrote in Java.
      I'm not sure whether the possibility of writing "poems" in Perl really means anything.
      Perl can also be an OO language and is much faster depending on the job you are doing
      Well, if language A is faster than language B depending on the job you are doing, doesn't that mean that language B is also faster than language A depending on the job you are doing? Assuming the change is zero that for a particular job, both languages are as fast, it means that for some, but not all, jobs, language A is faster. Hence, there are jobs for which language A isn't faster, and therefore, language B is faster.
Re: Java Vs Perl
by tbone1 (Monsignor) on Jan 11, 2005 at 12:40 UTC
    Don't take a static snapshot as permanent gospel. A few years ago, mainframers were paid big bucks, but today, if you announce an opening for mainframe/Cobol programmers, you'll get swamped with resumes.

    I have done some Java programming and Perl programming to get a paycheck. I was paid well, but not that well. I think a better question is: why do most actors and pop singers make the money they do? Talk about overpaid, they don't even have defensive linemen trying to crush them.

    --
    tbone1, YAPS (Yet Another Perl Schlub)
    And remember, if he succeeds, so what.
    - Chick McGee

      Most actors and pop singers are not overpaid. It's just that you don't know most actors and pop singers. You just know the top - and you generalize based on that.

      Most NFL players on the other hand....

        Have you ever seen an NFL game live? I'm a season ticket holder, and it's stunning when you see it live. Those guys are paid to sacrifice their bodies. I've read that NFL players, in spite of being in such great shape, have a life expectancy 10-15 years less than the national average because of the stress their bodies take. I've read that the average starting running back goes through the equivalent of a head-on interstate car collision each game.

        Let's face it, people are paid what someone thinks they are worth: programmer, entertainer, lawyer, plumber, etc. To argue against that is, ultimately, an argument against freedom.

        --
        tbone1, YAPS (Yet Another Perl Schlub)
        And remember, if he succeeds, so what.
        - Chick McGee

Re: Java Vs Perl
by inman (Curate) on Jan 11, 2005 at 16:17 UTC
    Why do we keep raking over the same old Perl v Java question? The original question doesn't even bother to qaulify the question.

    Anyway - since the question was asked... Every quarter there is a survey of jobs offered based on actual advertised rates of pay. TotalJobs (a UK recruitment organisation) have compiled the information so that you can plug in your skillset and see what you should be earning. I tried a couple of variations and determined that Perl jobs are being advertised at a higher rate than Java. Obviously different permutations of skills and experience may produce different reusults.

Re: Java Vs Perl
by elwarren (Curate) on Jan 12, 2005 at 00:43 UTC
    Forget all these other discussions. It's all perception. Complete opinion with no facts:
    • The internet left the realm of ugly static html and became interactive with ugly CGI scripts. Much of this is thanks to perl. As companies put real systems on the internet they needed something better than that old ugly stuff, perl got a bad rap from alot of that old code. Java was shiny and new and promised to look good.
    • Java has corporate marketing and sponsorship. This makes it legit. Perl is grassroots. This makes it ill-legit.
    • Java is hard to learn. This makes you smarter and more valuable if you put it on your resume. Perl allows you to start with easy code and grow into things just as complex as Java, if you choose. Easy stuff isn't worth alot of money.
    • Java has forced people to upgrade to 21 inch monitors in order to be able to read an entire line of wordy code. A 21" monitor is expensive, therefore, Java developers have had to ask for more more money, to buy better hardware. You can write perl anyway you want.
    • Java requires alot of memory, but luckily memory is really cheap. Therefore, the java mantra has become, "ram is cheap, buy more." Perl projects as big as Java projects can also consume mucho amounts of ram, but the perl mantra is TMTOWTDI.
    • A perl programmer can do anything, and may often try to prove it. A java programmer cannot churn out as much code as fast as a perl programmer, thus more developers are needed. Java is more expensive than perl, it must be better.
    I could go on and on like this, but I think you get my point...

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