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Re^8: You have a point... :-)

by polettix (Vicar)
on Sep 08, 2005 at 01:53 UTC ( #490055=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re^7: You have a point... :-)
in thread When are you moving to India to find a better job?

Maybe you missed my original node. I'm not talking about public health system. I'm talking about corporations that go overseas because they can find a work regulation more forgiving than that in their home country. Because they can make the good and the bad time there, but not at home. Because they are bound to guarantee lower security standards - this is why I was talking about a broken leg.

This does not mean that they shouldn't invest overseas. What I find unfair is that their gain arises from worker's weaker position (with respect home workers). I accept the argument from merlyn about payment, as I said; I don't accept that this is not sufficient, and that more gains are done on looser safety and guarantees.

You say I have no sense of history. You're probably right, but I see here in Italy that years of working rights are being sacrificed in the name of "work flexibility", while capitals tend to concentrate in the hands of few and people suffers for increased poverty and less stability - which is a big step back IMO. And if this happens here, I fear that better conditions will never happen there: it's us that are adapting to their lower standard, not the contrary.

It was less than a century we had child workers in the west. Human rights for women isn't exactly new, either.
So what? Are you implying we should step back in the west? Or that this path will be the natural one for the east in the next years? This only means that they can't have easy slaves in the west, and they go looking in the third and fourth world. And this is history since the night of times.

Flavio
perl -ple'$_=reverse' <<<ti.xittelop@oivalf

Don't fool yourself.


Comment on Re^8: You have a point... :-)
Re^9: You have a point... :-)
by BerntB (Deacon) on Sep 08, 2005 at 03:54 UTC
    I'm not talking about public health system.
    Yeah, I just pointed out that you could argue that e.g. USA's health care system is lower standards than the European. Your argument is relevant here, too. As I wrote -- tounge in cheek.

    I don't exactly like the work market, either. But...

    My real points was that (a) those factories often have higher standards than the alternative work places overseas and (b) the consensus among economists seems to be that this is part of the only ladder to prosperity that has worked, historically. We in the West climbed something similar in the 19th century.

    Now, given those two points -- can you contradict them with good references or are you really complaining anyway?

      Sorry I don't have the references you urge to have - but I maybe don't need them, because we're not saying things that are at opposite sided. Moreover, I note that you tend to ask for references without giving ones, which does not seem fair this second time.

      I've tried to be clear that the regulation should encourage higher life standards, and not only lower costs for corporations.

      those factories often have higher standards than the alternative work places overseas
      Often means not always, which is a pity. Regulation should strive to impose that products that are produced overseas with something resembling the standards one has at home, otherwise we're closing our eyes. Moreover, they can be higher than the other native work places (which is something that I would like to see evidence of), but my point was subtly different. What I want to say is that going overseas is a way to avoid to adhere to the standards one is imposed to follow at home, and this goes at the expense of workers overseas.
      the consensus among economists seems to be that this is part of the only ladder to prosperity that has worked, historically. We in the West climbed something similar in the 19th century.
      This is probably what you're looking for contradiction pointers from me. But the fact is that I don't want to contradict this. This might be what worked for the west in the 19th century, but I would also remember you that workers had to fight hard to reach what they have today (and that they are sadly losing). I also think that today the conditions are quite different with respect the 19th century, and I'm quite skeptical about the same path being followed in the third and fourth world. There is a precise interest in keeping them as they are.

      As I said, all this is not intended to be an arid complaining. I agree that there are win-win opportunities overseas for companies. What I don't agree is that there is not balance, and the weaker side gains something resembling a Pirro victory. Given the fact that our governments are so keen to spread freedom all over the world, I was wondering if it could be done in manners that were not only intended to give benefits to the army industry and the oil market.

      Flavio
      perl -ple'$_=reverse' <<<ti.xittelop@oivalf

      Don't fool yourself.
        How about this for a reference? Krugman says more or less exactly what I've seen most economists claim. He isn't right wing, either. Again, why is that wrong?

        workers had to fight hard to reach what they have today (and that they are sadly losing).
        Yeah, and the rest of the world will have to fight hard, too. I don't know if that regulation thing works between countries. To me, it sounds like politicians trying to make another impossible-to-implement question into a career.

        If there shows up lots of educated people willing to work for a fraction of the previous cost, there will be friction... and renegotiation of old deals. It will even out, over time, when the new workers get more money.

        Points:

        • Yes, it sucks to be us -- getting caught in the middle
        • The only ones I've seen with your arguments are left wing. It is hard to take the Swedish left wing seriously. E.g. Israel-bashing and never criticising dictatorships that are factors of ten worse. Etc, etc. Italian lefties might look less like an European variant of Bush's religion?
        • I just hope that there won't be too much damage to the economic system from all these fast changes.

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