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I'm all for the type of job posting Skip Huffman made

by metaperl (Curate)
on Nov 01, 2005 at 22:32 UTC ( #504765=monkdiscuss: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??

Having been a member of this monestary since the year 2000, I know the type of people that come here. They come here to help. They come here to discuss. They come here to do things for free.

With that in mind, Skip seems like a monkly kinda guy. He's a free-spirited entrepreneur who believes in doing what is right with a hope that one day it will pay off strictly because he did a good job, not because some deep pocket put a silver spoon in his mouth.

Because I live at a real monestary, I can tell you: real monks need money and work like anyone else but they value the type of person they work with. Honest, hardworking people like Skip fit the bill perfectly.

I vote for creating a section of the monestary for posts just like his.... after all, what other public forum for Perl gets so much attention and could possibly attract the type of people he needs? Perhaps craiglist? This is an open-ended question.

Comment on I'm all for the type of job posting Skip Huffman made
Re: I'm all for the type of job posting Skip Huffman made
by GrandFather (Cardinal) on Nov 01, 2005 at 22:44 UTC

    While I agree with you in general, I don't think that that is a justification for creating a new wing of the monastery to accomodate such posts. I personally don't object to a modest number of nodes like Skip's being posted, but I don't think that the number of such posts would be high enough to warrent the construction of a whole new wing for the job.

    Remember that pretty much everything posted here at present is permanent (for some definition of permanent) and that job ads of any sort are transient. That requires a whole different type of management which, although probably not hard to implement, just doesn't fit with the current structure and objectives of our beloved monastery.


    Perl is Huffman encoded by design.
Re: I'm all for the type of job posting Skip Huffman made
by dragonchild (Archbishop) on Nov 01, 2005 at 23:25 UTC
    I would like to see a section of the Monastery devoted to these kinds of posts. Maybe, a new feature is required that allows someone to completely ignore a section of the Monastery. But, that kind of entrepreneurship should be encouraged by the Monastery, not squished.

    As for policing ... nothing's wrong with the current methods and there's no reason to think they won't be sufficient.


    My criteria for good software:
    1. Does it work?
    2. Can someone else come in, make a change, and be reasonably certain no bugs were introduced?

      I'm not trying to be contentious, here, but why should it be? I don't think the site has anything as definite as a mission statement (in fact, I sort of hope it doesn't), but if it did, I'd be very surprised to see "nurturing small businesses" anywhere on it. In particular, why is this more relevant to a Perl programming site than, say, any of the dozen or so database-related questions I've seen considered with "deleteónot Perl" as the reason?



      If God had meant us to fly, he would *never* have given us the railroads.
          --Michael Flanders

        Because of the number of Perl advocacy meditations we seem to be dealing with.

        My criteria for good software:
        1. Does it work?
        2. Can someone else come in, make a change, and be reasonably certain no bugs were introduced?

        I agree that "nuturing small business" would be inappropriate. But what about "encouraging professional opportunities for Perl users"?

        Skip
        This node was taken out by the NodeReaper on Thu Nov 3 07:40:49 2005 GMT
        Reason: [blue_cowdawg]: delete: duplicate

        For more information on this node visit: this

        In particular, why is this more relevant to a Perl programming site than, say, any of the dozen or so database-related questions I've seen considered with "deleteónot Perl" as the reason?

        I'm sure you asked this question seriously, so I'm wondering what fault you will find in the obvious answer: because the offer was for a Perl programming position. If it had been for a database administrator or an IT manager or a Java programmer, it would have been considered, downvoted, and reaped and if it got any responses at all they would have been rebukes. But, to Perl programmers, information about Perl programming jobs might have value.

        † Emphasis added.

        -sauoq
        "My two cents aren't worth a dime.";
        
Re: I'm all for the type of job posting Skip Huffman made
by monarch (Priest) on Nov 02, 2005 at 01:00 UTC
    What GrandFather said about transient and permanent posts is the crux of the problem.

    The particular thread in question was useful in-so-far as making a public record of monks' opinion on the matter of business ventures in the form proposed.

    However going forward one would not want to see frequent postings of a similar nature.

    The very reason for the thread's existance was that jobs.perl.org does not support postings for that kind of business model. Therefore I would suggest that someone (such as the thread author) considers creating a website for that very kind of employment type.

    It wouldn't be hard, and at $US7/month for a cheap website in the USA with Perl and database support, it could serve as a service to other like minded entrepreneurs.

    Thus, I guess I'm saying I don't see a need or a desire for similar types of postings at perlmonks (just my opinion).

    Update: corrected capitalisation of GrandFather.

      Thus, I guess I'm saying I don't see a need or a desire for similar types of postings at perlmonks (just my opinion).

      I think the desire is there among at least some of us. Let's talk about the need.

      I think it depends somewhat on whose perspective you are looking at it from. I guess the entreprenueurs could go somewhere else. Maybe they could even find such a concentrated pool of capable Perl programmers elsewhere... (doubt it though.)

      But, how about us? What other board would give us the same sort of review and insightful commentary such offers would get from other monks here? That's one thing that the standard answer (jobs.perl.org) doesn't address. There's no one there asking the questions you wish you had thought of or catching the red flag that you missed. That's something PM could provide that you don't find elsewhere. (At least, not that I know of.)

      I've thought about this quite a bit since a CB discussion the other day. I was swaying toward the idea of creating a jobs section when bart mentioned the same issue GrandFather did and that was enough to convince me it wasn't right for the monastery. At least temporarily. I'm not so sure again. I'm not even so sure that the nodes have to be temporary. I mean... how many are there going to be? Why not keep them around as history? Theoretically, it might not seem like such a hot idea, but I really don't see much of a practical downside.

      In that same discussion, tye noted his concern about spam. He asked whether I thought the job posts would all be for Perl jobs. And he voiced concern about too many PM resources being diverted to such a section. I don't buy those arguments though. I think the current moderation system would keep the jobs posted on "topic" so to speak. We could even, if we saw fit, institute a system whereby only monks of, say, level 5 could post a job. Yes, the moderation system should be counted as a monastery "resource" but, it's one we have plenty of to go around. It's not like we can only consider some number of nodes a day based on our XP and we aren't limited on how many considerations we vote on either. Bad job posts would fail to be approved in the first place and then they'd be taken care of efficiently and in short order. I just can't see how it would be otherwise.

      So, I've swung back to the other side again and I find each time I get over here to this side of the fence, it is more and more likely that this will be where I will finally rest my opinion on the issue. Done well, I think a job posting section would be very worthwhile.

      -sauoq
      "My two cents aren't worth a dime.";
      

      While I agree (for obvious reasons) that a website that would support/accept my business model, I am not the person to create it. The reason being that I am fully committed to my project. As well as still being a full time employee at my "day job". (And supervising the remodeling of my home.)

      I expect to be fully committed for quite some time. When my new venture takes off I will need to leave my job and devote full time to that.

      Thank you.

      Skip
Re: I'm all for the type of job posting Skip Huffman made
by rnahi (Curate) on Nov 02, 2005 at 06:38 UTC
    Having been a member of this monestary since the year 2000

    And clearly you don't have the Monastery in great esteem, since

    • You still can't spell it right.
    • You can't even make an on site link
    • With another identity you have several times said how much you disliked the Monastery and its rules, and how the user metaperl was born as a challenge to the community.

    For all the above reasons, I apply a fair amount of disbelief to everything you may say.

      I'm a bit confused, is metaperl the same person as princepawn? If so, how do you know this? I clicked on the links you provided and (without exhaustively reading them all) don't see the connection. Can you enlighten?

      Celebrate Intellectual Diversity

        not to start a flame war but metaperl = princepawn.

        "Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum - I think that I think, therefore I think that I am." Ambrose Bierce

Re: I'm all for the type of job posting Skip Huffman made
by tirwhan (Abbot) on Nov 02, 2005 at 11:12 UTC

    My question would be: why? What would a PM section accomplish that jobs.perl.org doesn't already? Only add a space for job offers without payment? Does the world really need another website for that purpose (given that job offers of this sort come for free in the mail and on a plethora of contracting sites)?

    IMO what Skip or someone in a similar situation could do is put a link to the job offer (or even the offer itself) into their home node and put a short pointer at this in their .sig (e.g. "Looking for programmers, check my home node"). That should be unobtrusive enough to not be considered annoying by most monks and still give them the benefit of "advertising" in monk-space with every post they make.


    Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. -- Brian W. Kernighan

      One difficulty with the suggestion for "Home Node Posting, plus signature pointer" is that it encourages trivial posting.

      I have been a member since March of 2004, and a reader before that, but I only have 52 writeups, and a large portion of those were this week.

      My skill level puts me in a position where I really don't have a lot to add to most discussions. I am skilled enough where I am not asking a lot of questions, but not so skilled that I can contribute a great deal to the answers.

      If I were to have my sig line as the only way to encourage people to see my job posting, I might have a tendency to post excessively. I am not saying that I would, but it would be a temptation.

      Skip

        That side-effect wouldn't necessarily be bad. Let me explain:

        The only possible value you can get from posting a job advert at PM is that there is a high concentration of skilled perl programmers here, and by posting as one of them you bypass several of the negative connotations that come along with other methods of advertising. Case in point, metaperl posted this thread in your defense because he thinks you are "the monkish type", therefore he tends to look at your advert more favourably than he would otherwise.

        There is no shortage of ways for you (or others like you) to reach a large community of programmers who are looking for a job and offer them one. There is a shortage of places where you can do so without the immediate suspicion that comes from a job offer without pay (I'm not passing judgement on your proposition btw, there are drawbacks to all job offers, even if it's only the drawback of "having to work"). You saw that the reaction to your node was not entirely positive, many people questioned your business model. I'd bet that if you post the exact same offer to a place where you are not "one of the guys" you'd have received an even less favourable feedback from the exact same people (including no feedback, which is even worse).

        What does this have to do with your point regarding trivial posting? Well, if you do post more often (so that your .sig-advert is noticed) people will still read your postings, and if they contain nothing of value you'll be so much less "one of the guys" and so much more a random noise generator and your offer will be viewed accordingly. If your posting instead does contain something of value, the monastery gains and you gain. Win-win :-)


        Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. -- Brian W. Kernighan
Re: I'm all for the type of job posting Skip Huffman made
by samizdat (Vicar) on Nov 02, 2005 at 14:20 UTC
    While SkipHuffman made a few errors in the way he presented his opportunity, I think his FCT effort and things like it deserve support and exposure. {Setting aside the q of whether PM is the place, for a moment.}

    <RANT>
    </RANT>

    Now, back to the question of 'opportunity postings'. I, for one, would like to see the entrepreneurial spirit alive on PM as well as everywhere else. What I don't want to see is a 'job board' or a bunch of SoPW postings about them. I totally agree on that point. What I suggest is that the gods get together and create a PMFAQ that suggests that homenodes are the appropriate place for such expressions, and then walks the noob through creating a .sig for self-promotion. That way, the exposure of the node/project is proportional to the amount of contribution the poster makes to the real purpose of PerlMonks. I don't see this as any different than promotion of a GPL project on SourceForge or any other endeavor from BSD usage to EMACS, nor any less valid for the fact that there's a hope of revenue involved. SkipHuffman's project is in Perl and it is in the best tradition of the 'little guy' who has a better idea. He deserves our support!
Re: I'm all for the type of job posting Skip Huffman made
by jira0004 (Monk) on Nov 02, 2005 at 15:55 UTC

    Hi all,

    I have read the thread of postings in response to this posting about Skip Huffman's job posting. I have a few questions/comments:

    • What is the controversy over this post? Is the controversy that Skip Huffman's posting appears to be a posting for a job where the initial form of compensation would solely be equity in his business venture and no pay check? Or is the controversy that it is a job posting at all and not really a question/comment about Perl?
    • What is being proposed in this discussion? Are we proposing a separate section for job postings/career opportunities?
    • Additionally, I don't think it is right to be critical of someone's post simply due to spelling errors, typos, or poor hyperlinks. We're all human, we all make these kinds of mistakes

    I fully support the idea of constructing a new page within the Perl Monks web site for job/postings/career opportunities. Additionally, I don't have a problem with a posting for a job whose initial compensation would be equity in the given business. We're all adults here; each of us can decide for ourselves whether a given opportunity is a good idea or a good fit. For that matter some one could provide work for a company for free if he or she liked -- although I myself like the whole getting compensated thing -- as does the bank that holds my mortgage.

    Additionally, I'd like to see a page for groups/companies that provide training/education. I am often looking for one form of training or another so a technical training page for companies that provide training would be great.

    Well, that's my two cents

    --- Peter Jirak

    jira0004@yahoo.com

      I don't think it is right to be critical of someone's post simply due to spelling errors, typos, or poor hyperlinks.

      True. But also, misspelling the same name for six years, and linking offsite for six years even though he's been told countless times, it means real lack of respect for the community or for the people living in it.

      Besides, metaperl (a.k.a. princepawn) faults are far beyond spelling. He's being abusing people for years. And while that could be excusable if you are a true wizard (à la meryln), it's really insufferable behaviour from somebody whose sole distinguished feature is sloppiness and cargo cult coding.

        Besides, metaperl (a.k.a. princepawn) faults are far beyond spelling. He's being abusing people for years. And while that could be excusable if you are a true wizard (à la meryln), it's really insufferable behaviour from somebody whose sole distinguished feature is sloppiness and cargo cult coding.

        Please explain why it is acceptable for merlyn (which you misspelled BTW ;) to abuse people more than it is for metaperl?

        I actually just had a discussion with a co-worker this morning about what kind of people make good employees, and IMO "ability to play well with others" is very high on the list.

        In short, I don't care how much of a "wizard" you are, an a**hole is an a**hole, and I will never hire one no matter how "good" they are.

        Disclaimer: I am not calling anyone an a**hole in this post. I don't know merlyn, and have no opinion on him besides his code. I do know metaperl a little better though, and while he has been known to rub people the wrong way, my assessment is that overall he is not a bad guy. But that is just my opinion, nothing more nothing less.

        -stvn
Re: I'm all for the type of job posting Skip Huffman made
by blue_cowdawg (Prior) on Nov 02, 2005 at 17:08 UTC
        I vote for creating a section of the monestary for posts just like his....

    I have to register the strongest sort of disagreement here. I feel this sets a very bad precedent for the Monastery and opens a can of worms that you probably won't be able to get the worms back into without getting a larger can.

    What next? A classified ads section?

    There are web sites that are more suited to this and I think that sort of content should stay there.

    My opinion on this matter has nothing to do with Skip's business model. It is based very much on not wanting to encourage "SPAM" in yet another forum that I participate in.

    It can be argued one way or another if what Skip posted was spam or not, but IMHO it certainly should not be encouraged.


    Peter L. Berghold -- Unix Professional
    Peter -at- Berghold -dot- Net; AOL IM redcowdawg Yahoo IM: blue_cowdawg
Re: I'm all for the type of job posting Skip Huffman made
by jdporter (Canon) on Nov 03, 2005 at 22:07 UTC

      That is certainly clear and unequivocal. Had that been posted before I posted my ad, I would not have done so.

      Skip

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