Re: How should Perlmonks deal with Plagiarism?

[mkirank]

This has been very Entertaining for me :-)
I would'nt have commented here but some monks brought in Asian and Hinduism in between so here are my comments
Unlike most of you , I have met jesuashok in person,I Worked with him for around 3 months before he moved to a different company.

My opinion about him as I remember (this was 2 years ago).
At that time he was a bit Immature (still has some learning to do on this :-) ) but he would spend around 12-14 hours in the office to take care of the project
at that time he was new to perl
He was the youngest member of the team and was *always* ridiculed ..

Now answering some questions on this thread before I comment on the Issue
shmem
Brag before others (see "Monks i have met" on jesuashok homenode) about their XP gained at perlmonks
I cannot talk for the others on that list but though I consider my perl skills as average , I have been to YAPC::2005 and I have met a lot of talented people there and I can differentiate between their perl skills based on their work and someone who gains XP here
If you have not been to a YAPC you should,Its an amazing experience ...
syphilis
I'm always mindful of cultural differences in issues like this. (That's not quite true ... I should say that I try to be mindful of cultural differences ... and that I don't always succeed.)
You succeded on this node but IMHO you failed when u said,
I can't give an answer to that question. There are probably Indian perlmonks who can answer that question ... but then there's the issue of whether they would be prepared to truthfully answer that question.
I have read about the racial tension in Australia and I think it is written from that angle in mind, I may be wrong but that is what it feels to me when you say "prepared to truthfully answer"
I am not aware of what constitutes plagiarism but I dont think I will do what jesuashok did to gain XP and it is not cool
I can tell you that I worked in Indonesia (Bali, to be precise - which is a Hindu community, by majority) for a few months, and that lying (in order to "save face") was perfectly acceptable, frequently practiced, and never admitted
what is the total population of the Hindu community there and how many people did you meet , of that how many told you this was acceptable ? .. you can use words cleverly (like majority ,acceptable ..)
Why did u have to bring in Asian/Hindu into this ?
Is'nt it the same world over , I read about one australian cricketer who lied and then was caught (not once)
and there are many leaders who have lied (still are) and have been caught all around the world ...the point is people lie everywhere it dosen't depend on where they are from and what religion they are .. Most of us have heard about Karma (XP) .. Karma is a concept in hinduism .

Now on the Issue in perlmonks
IMHO
The person did this to gain XP as a community we can reduce his XP to 0 ...That is his real photo and he has been mocked up by enough people , These should be enough and the account can be dismissed if this continues in the future.
I do not know the Law's in other countries but in India if you are caught cheating in school you are failed in that particular test (you will be able to take the test again next time)...As it says in the Perlmonks FAQ this is
A community which allows everyone to grow and learn from one another.
Lets not make it a racial or religion Issue and Instead focus on learning .

[planetscape]

Is lying condoned in Indian/Asian cultures?

I can't give an answer to that question. There are probably Indian perlmonks who can answer that question ... but then there's the issue of whether they would be prepared to truthfully answer that question.

While I cannot speak for syphilis, nor would I presume to, I would like to take a stab at clarifying what I think he meant.

Given the context of his post, that of being a reply in a thread discussing the probable wrongdoings of certain PerlMonks members from one particular geographic region, wherein there is a degree of uncertainty regarding cultural norms and mores between that geographic region and another from which the "majority" of members hail, it is hard to say how members from that geographic region would respond when asked: "So, do you think the actions of your fellow countrymen, which we have been condemning in this thread, are wrong?"

It's akin to the Catch-22 or "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" sort of question that is "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

Clearly, that last question is of the form demanding a yes or no answer. But if you answer "Yes," then it implies you were beating your wife at some point and were therefore in the wrong at that time.

If you say "No," you may well mean, "No, I have never beaten my wife," but the questioner has set it up in such a way that for them, "No" means, "No, I haven't stopped beating my wife." Or in other words, you are wrong now.

So, you are in effect wrong no matter how you answer, whether or not you ever were in fact guilty of spousal abuse.

The word "lying," generally, in English, already carries connotations of wrongdoing. Therefore, to say, "Yes, lying is condoned," is in effect saying, "Yeah, we know it's wrong, and we do it anyway."

Or at least the one giving an afirmative answer may be concerned that that is how an affirmative answer will sound to the questioner.

OTOH, it is entirely possible that an affirmative answer to that question: "Is lying condoned?" might well mean more along the lines of: "Under certain circumstances, when telling the truth may cause more pain, damage, or acrimony, it may instead be better to tell a small untruth, a 'white lie,' in the interests of the greater good."

In the current context of this thread, it would be very difficult IMHO for a person, from the same geographic region as the two Monks being discussed above, perhaps lacking a facility with the English language, and being probably equally as perplexed by the finer points of Western culture and custom as Westerners are of Indian or Hindu culture, to adequately articulate an answer that sounds a great deal like, and may be artificially simplified to mean, "Yes, we condone wrongful behaviour."

I believe it was precisely this careful distinction that syphilis was attempting to make.

[syphilis]

it is hard to say how members from that geographic region would respond when asked

That, in a nutshell, is all I was trying to get at. Sorry if it got misconstrued as something more sinister.

Cheers,
Rob

[shenme]

Why did u have to bring in Asian/Hindu into this ?

Because he was concerned and sensitive to the issues you are worrying at him about? He was relating his experiences with a much different culture from his own. And since Indonesia is by far Islamic, he had to qualify that Bali is majority Hindu (92%), which is the reason he wondered whether it might indicate anything about Indian attitudes. He was asking whether there was a difference there, as he had found in Bali. I can find nothing wrong with what he said. I do worry about your rapid-fire questions on this one point.

Believe me, there is real confusion and real consternation about the mismatch between the rather simple concept of plagiarism and the behavior of students from some cultures. It is not so much the rates or percentages (whatever they are) that is so distressing, it is the blank look on their faces when you bring the evidence to their attention. (The guilty yelling from other cultures is not necessarily preferable, no) Thus the legitimate query, is (undetected) plagiarism the norm, or at least unacknowledged, in some cultures? Which brings us back to the confusion as to how to handle it here at PM, a multi-cultural meeting place.