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Re^6: OO automatic accessor generation

by WizardOfUz (Friar)
on Nov 12, 2009 at 10:38 UTC ( #806682=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re^5: OO automatic accessor generation
in thread OO automatic accessor generation

I wouldn't call the code you posted a simplification. It is shorter, yes. But it is definitely not simple.

Even the most experienced Perl hacker would have a hard time understanding it without ever having looked at the Moose documentation before. The code posted by the OP (and my little exercise) on the other hand, should be understandable even to Perl beginners who just skimmed over the Camel book.

Just to prove my point: Can you tell me, without looking at the Moose documentation, what the ArrayRef accessors return in list context? A single array reference? Or the content of the associated array-typed attribute? And if they return an array reference, is that reference a reference to the actual attribute slot or just a reference to a copy of it? And what about scalar context?

Please don't get me wrong. I have nothing against Moose. I just don't think it should be the starting point for Perl beginners.


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Re^7: OO automatic accessor generation
by eric256 (Parson) on Nov 12, 2009 at 15:12 UTC

    Can you tell me the answers to those questions without checking the implementation? If i have to choose between checking the implementation and checking documentation i'm going to pick documentation. That I think IS a lesson worth teaching as a starting point for begginners. Yes you can look at the implementation, but when the application becomes large enough finding the implementation becomes more of a challenge than finding the documentation. I'm all for reinventing the wheel as a learning experience, but part of that experience for me also involves finding all the existing wheels and see what lessons there are to learn from them. In this case Moose is a good wheel too look into, hence sample code.


    ___________
    Eric Hodges
      Can you tell me the answers to those questions without checking the implementation?

      Yes, of course. I've just written that code. I'm somewhat forgetful, but it's not that bad ...

      Apart from that, maybe my hint was too subtle, but I think your sample code behaves quite differently from the OP's code. Shouldn't you have set the auto_deref option to true for your ArrayRef and HashRef accessors? Then again, maybe I'm not remembering this correctly. You know ... that memory thing ;-)

        I wasn't even attempting to duplicate the behavior and I always work with refs for arrays and hashses, so that felt like the natural use here. The point I was making wasn't about your memory. Say you make 5 scripts and hand roll the OO implementation each time. Now instead of one central documented module you have 5 that might have small difference depending on the needs of each. There is no centralized code or process for these OO modules you have created (yes you could create one, and tests and documentation, and that might be the right solution for some cases). So now for each script i have to go read your implementation of the getter/setter and watch for small changes that will bite me. If instead I use Moose then I can read documentation in one location and understand all of the scripts.

        Either way my point wasn't USE MOOSE, or anything along those lines. Think of it more as, hey, there might be a solution already built and this one looks pretty spiffy, check it out and see if it fits your needs or not. I've used Moose, and hand rolled OO for different cases and different needs, so it might not be the right tool in this case, but it might be, and for that reason there is no reason not to mention it here in response to the OP.


        ___________
        Eric Hodges
        Apart from that, maybe my hint was too subtle, but I think your sample code behaves quite differently from the OP's code. Shouldn't you have set the auto_deref option to true for your ArrayRef and HashRef accessors?

        Yes, you are correct, but even that would not work exactly the same. The OP's code (as well as your refactoring) would return an array count in scalar context (or that odd fraction looking string that you get when you do scalar %foo that tells you about the buckets and keys of the HV), where auto_deref in Moose would return an array reference or hash reference. Honestly, this to me is just another reason to use Moose since this behavior is sane, documented and tested, all a user would need to do would be to check those docs. Using the hand-rolled code, a simple accident of context (a common gotcha for Perl beginners) could lead to a very confusing debugging session and non-obvious perldoc hunt. I am sure even you would agree that seeing something like "HASH(0xDECAF)" is easier to figure out then "3/12".

        One of the things about Moose that I suspect you are not seeing is that it brings consistency to Perl OO and that is a good thing. If 100 programmers write a Perl classes using Moose and use auto_deref, then any of those 100 programmers could look at any of those 100 classes and know exactly what auto_deref means and how it will behave. Additionally all these 100 classes would be (within reason) compatible with one another since they would all be using the same underlying object system making it easier for people to reuse them.

        If just 10 programmers write a Perl class using their hand-rolled object system the odds that any of those 10 systems would be compatible with one another are not very good. The odds are very good that at least one of those hand-rolled object systems would have issues with inheritance and some of them will make mistakes like the OP and do something like regenerate accessors in the constructor. Writing an object system in Perl is easy and fun, but writing a robust and flexible object system in Perl is hard and is only fun if your a masochist.

        -stvn

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