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Re: A wholly inadequate reply to an Anonymous Monk

by Anonymous Monk
on Apr 23, 2010 at 07:16 UTC ( #836440=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to A wholly inadequate reply to an Anonymous Monk

You are right no body really understands the complexity behind what you are trying to build. But ask yourself this question, How are they to understand when you haven't told it to them? The biggest problem in communication is to assume that its already done.

When people hear about Perl 6 initially, they probably read the FAQ or some other feature list. And they assume this a feature rich but Just-Another-Compiler. No body really understands what it means to have a mutable grammar,or some of the cool stuff that Perl 6 has! But how do we expect them to understand when they don't know about it?

Chromatic's post clarified a lot of misgivings people had about the decade long history about Perl 6. If there was one similar post regarding how difficult it is to build this kind of a compiler it will be great, And that post must be communicated to some Open Source news forums where hackers hang out frequently. People will then get a clear Idea and stop criticizing you for the wrong reasons.

People who criticize you are not your enemies but your friends, indirectly they give you a temperature check of whats brimming in the community. We fight so passionately with people whom we love not our enemies. Lastly think about those who don't complain but just give up and leave, From past few years Ruby and Python scored some undeserved points because of all this FUD.

All the best to you and Rakudo team, we are eagerly waiting for "The Release".


Comment on Re: A wholly inadequate reply to an Anonymous Monk
Re^2: A wholly inadequate reply to an Anonymous Monk
by pmichaud (Scribe) on Apr 23, 2010 at 14:40 UTC
      >> You are right no body really understands the complexity behind what you are trying to build. But ask yourself this question, How are they to understand when you haven't told it to them?

      >IMO, this is more FUD ("Nobody is talking about Perl 6"). Here's an off-the-cuff and horribly incomplete list for 2009, in no particular order:

      Sorry, but how many of these posts are talking about the complexity behind Perl 6?

      I know some of the people and read a lot from them, I also read Dan Sugalski's blog from start till burnout.

      I suppose most of these posts have the aim to keep people interested and get them involved and NOT to lower expectations or criticizing the complexity.

      This is for sure a fantastic project, but we should start getting realistic about it.

      The Perl community could have massive boost just by making a big release with "boring features"¹ but could then easily challenge the "sex appeal" from Ruby and Python.

      Just like a plane is followed regularly by a bigger plane to keep the market interested and not by a rocket.

      And I'm sure this major release would

      a) put lots of pressure away from your team and

      b) build a bridge to your project by incorporating concepts

      c) therefore push the further development of it!

      Cheers Rolf

      ¹) Nota bene: I don't say YOU are to implement these boring features!

        The Perl community could have massive boost just by making a big release with "boring features"¹ but could then easily challenge the "sex appeal" from Ruby and Python.

        I think we're way ahead of you here. I believe this is exactly what the Rakudo Star release is intended to achieve.

        Pm

      Yes you are writing about Perl 6, Speaking about Perl 6 etc. My point was not about that. But rather about explaining people why building a Grammar engine for Perl 6 is so difficult, as I understand that has roots in the mutable aspects of Perl 6 Grammar.

      You are doing a great job, absolutely no doubts about that. But in this world you have to blow your own trumpet. Giving people a feel of(Technical matters of the compiler, not features of the language) will do a lot of help.
        So you want a simple explanation of why it's complex, eh?

        If you don't mind complex explanations of the complexity, those can be found in the apocalypses and synopses. And some of my talks have been about why the parser is complex. I generally run out of time in such talks... :-)

        For a more academic view of the complexity of what we're trying to do, here are some other people trying to do (some of) the same things with a different language, Fortress: "Growing a Syntax".

        It's easy to argue that we could have done this or that differently, and spend even more energy arguing whether those things were actually possible at the time or would have simply resulted in other dystopias. But the fact is that, within the constraints of health, sanity, and politics, we took the best shot at it we knew how, and our decisions, right or wrong, have put us where we are today, with a great deal of improvement in both Perl 5 and Perl 6 over the last ten years, in absolute terms.

        It's the relative worth of Perl with respect to other languages, and the perceptions and misperceptions of that worth, and the perceptions and misperceptions of other people's perceptions and misperceptions, that drives people's fears. And "Fear is the mind killer."

        So I simply say, "Don't do that." Regardless of our mistakes and our perceived mistakes, the Perl 5 and Perl 6 communities will both continue to prosper, because we have iron-willed people who are not going to give up. You can't change the past. You can't even change the future, in the sense that you can only change the present one moment at a time, stubbornly, until the future unwinds itself into the stories of our lives. My father always used to say "It's not what you do, it's what you do next." So let's all look toward the future, and keep on doing the next thing, and the next, and the next.

      if you want to never finish something you will do as much press conferences and presentations and articles as you'd like. and let chromatic write entire shelves and fill up a library of Alexandria with his books.

      on the other hand when you're determined to get some stuff done, you will pull the damn ethernet plug from your computer, or close your wifi connection and go dark and just hack.

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