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Re^4: A wholly inadequate reply to an Anonymous Monk

by pmichaud (Scribe)
on Apr 23, 2010 at 17:30 UTC ( #836572=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re^3: A wholly inadequate reply to an Anonymous Monk
in thread A wholly inadequate reply to an Anonymous Monk

The Perl community could have massive boost just by making a big release with "boring features"┬╣ but could then easily challenge the "sex appeal" from Ruby and Python.

I think we're way ahead of you here. I believe this is exactly what the Rakudo Star release is intended to achieve.

Pm


Comment on Re^4: A wholly inadequate reply to an Anonymous Monk
Re^5: A wholly inadequate reply to an Anonymous Monk
by LanX (Canon) on Apr 23, 2010 at 20:48 UTC
    > I think we're way ahead of you here. I believe this is exactly what the Rakudo Star release is intended to achieve.

    Ehm ... sorry I don't understand !?!

    Do you intend to bundle Rakudo * with a fully functional Perl 5 engine?

    Such that the gaps ( IO, CPAN-Moduls, time-critical parts, *) can be filled with help of the Perl 5 or Perl 6 can be embedded in Perl 5 code?

    What will be the difference to the Perl 6 bundled with Padre?

    I was talking about an improved evolution of Perl 5 ...

    Cheers Rolf

      I was talking about an improved evolution of Perl 5 ...
      My apologies, I misunderstood what you were saying. So to answer what I now understand you to be talking about...
      Releasing a Perl5 compatible successor, maybe just bundling Moose for OOP and Coro for multithreading and maybe some syntax cosmetics and restriction│ to contradict the "write only language" complaint would easily cannibalize the Ruby spectra like they are actually cannibalizing the Python spectra.╣
      ...
      Perl5 is somehow in the situation of Neanderthals who are told by the gods that further evolution is useless because Sapiens Sapiens will arrive in Europe and wipe them out.

      Sorry, I really can't speak to plans for Perl 5 development, that's not my field of expertise. And I don't know what gods you know that are telling Perl 5 not to evolve, but I can guarantee they will be denounced by the Perl 6 team, not worshipped by us. After all, Perl 6 hopes and plans to interoperate with Perl 5 someday, and anything that can be done to help the two languages converge (i.e., both languages must evolve) will be of great assistance in that effort.

      I also think that the many Perl 5 contributors who have slaved away these past years to bring 5.8 and 5.10 into the world can be justifiably miffed that their heroic efforts are so easily dismissed by comments like this.

      Honestly, Perl6 should be renamed into something like Perl++.

      Hypothetically, let's suppose for a moment that I agree with you, and that we should change Perl 6's name to something else. Will this suddenly free up the name for Perl 5 to use in marketing materials? I think not -- I think any attempt for a Perl 5 successor to make use of the Perl 6 name in the next five years would befuddle the marketplace even further and cause even more ridicule of Perl in general. There's just too much baggage (much of it negative) already attached to the name "Perl 6" for Perl 5 to be able to make any good use of it now. (I'd apologize, but the choice was never mine to make nor significantly influence. I understand why people are pained by it though.)

      I think we can speculate all we want about how "Perl 6" ended up being the wrong name for what we got, but I fear that train left the station years ago, before people ever recognized it as a potential problem. Let's move on. Personally, I think we're better off exploring names like "Rakudo Perl", "Vanilla Perl", "Strawberry Perl", "ActiveState Perl", "Pugs", etc. than boxing ourselves into a strict sequential 4, 5, 6, ... numbering scheme.

      (If you think such an approach cannot possibly work from a marketing perspective, then I offer Windows 3.1, Windows NT, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Vista, and Windows 7 as an obvious counterexample. And of course there are also things like "Windows CE" and "Windows Mobile" that denote products in the same family but have an entirely different technical basis and purpose. Whether you respect Microsoft's technical skills or not, I think we all have to admit that they probably know a thing or two about marketing and that they show it's possible to be successful in spite of marketing mistakes.)

      TMTOWTDI is our motto, and one of the deep lessons I've learned from watching Larry and the Perl community work is this: Just when it seems like there are competing needs that seem impossibly irreconcilable, someone comes up with an absolutely brilliant, unprecedented solution that makes the world say "Wow" and forevermore changes the way that everyone thinks about it in the future. I'd like to see us work towards that end, rather than eternally regret "what might have been" with the name "Perl 6".

      Pm

        > I also think that the many Perl 5 contributors who have slaved away these past years to bring 5.8 and 5.10 into the world can be justifiably miffed that their heroic efforts are so easily dismissed by comments like this.

        well I thought it was quite clear that I was talking about the marketing effect of an official new major release.

        Of course Perl5 is evolving but - sadly - it's not noticed!

        And I don't care how the sum of all these heroic efforts should be called as long as it is a good name.

        So what do you suggest? Perl5++, Perl5NT, Perl 5000?

        IMHO alone the existence of "Perl6" project psychologically hinders efforts towards a new major release of Perl5.

        Cheers Rolf

        PS: I have to say don't like these rhetorical tricks ...

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