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Re^23: What is "aggressive" argument?

by Argel (Prior)
on Nov 12, 2010 at 23:21 UTC ( #871164=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re^22: What is "aggressive" argument?
in thread What is "aggressive" argument?

Of course, as individuals, we make judgements all the time. I don't like the color my neighbour painted his fences and garden shed--a kind of bright 'fake tan orangey-yellow'--but I don't go telling him that he can't do it. Despite that I have to look at it every day.
BTW, why do you think I am telling you what you can or cannot do??? I'm not!! I'm just saying that if you do not like being singled out so much then you need ratchet back on the flamewar style tactics and give being civil a try (for an extended period of time). That's "need" as in "I believe this step is necessary to achieve the specified results". Like it's in a series of instructions -- e.g. "you need to install the hard drive before you can partition it".

It's not like I'm one of the gods here who could lock your account. And I'm not aware of the gods threatening to do that. So there's no one forcing you to do anything. In fact, I would find it very disturbing if they were threatening to revoke your account. Or at least I would once I got over the initial shock!

So this is just a few Monks having a discussion (or whatever we want to call it). If you want to operate just like you have, there is no one stopping you. And there is also no one stopping some of us for dinging you when you resort to flamewar style tactics.

I know you think you are being unjustly singled out, but 1) the onus is on you to try and be more civil, and 2) the technical side of the discussions are often worth putting up with the baggage they come with. And I suppose I should add 3) sometimes the "baggage" is good popcorn entertainment.

Anyway, I think #2 is why you get dinged more often -- most flamewars degenerate into worthless drivel and feeding a troll is more like watching a mortal sin being committed right before your eyes in slow motion-- in other words, most Monks just do the "move along, nothing to see here" thing. Since your posts often have a lot of technical content, and it's often you sparring with e.g. ikegami, then many Monks do not just move along because it's interesting, either for the technical side of things or for the entertainment value (or both). And so you get noticed more. Consider it the price you pay for being a Pope on this site.

P.S. The color of that fence sounds horrendous!! Maybe if some rust, grunge etc. was added it to it it would at least have a steampunk feel to it....

Elda Taluta; Sarks Sark; Ark Arks


Comment on Re^23: What is "aggressive" argument?
Re^24: What is "aggressive" argument?
by BrowserUk (Pope) on Nov 13, 2010 at 01:03 UTC
    BTW, why do you think I am telling you what you can or cannot do??? I'm not!!

    Sorry? But you are:

    1) the onus is on you to try and be more civil,

    More civil than what? More civil than who? Define "civil"?

    Please express your design for my "betterment" in terms that mean I do not have to refer everything I write to you for approval before posting.


    Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
    "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
    In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
      No, I'm not! If I was really telling you what you can or cannot do then I would need to have some power over you -- e.g. the ability to revoke your account, abusing authority, etc. However, I have no power or authority over you. Well, maybe I should say that the only power I have over you is that which you give to me. An obvious example of this is when we let a troll get the best of us.

      I can only offer advice. Any time it looks like I am telling you what you can or cannot do is as I indicated before: in the context of "if you want to achieve goal Z then you will need to do X and Y" (where "will" is obviously based on my evaluation of the situation).

      Please express your design for my "betterment" in terms that mean I do not have to refer everything I write to you for approval before posting.
      I think herveus summed things up really well, so lets revisit his post:
      My sense, from a number of years of experience, is that you are prone to being needlessly contentious. You elect confrontational language on slight provocation. You do normally include substantive technical content, but it's effectiveness is lessened by the static around it.
      So, some things to look for:
      • Are you attacking the theory/idea/code (good) or the person (bad)?
      • How emotionally involved are you (normally a bad thing)?
        • Is that post you are about to publish heavy on [potentially] inflammatory content and light on relevant technical details?
        • Do you feel like you have to get the last word in? Or that you have to prove you are right?
        • Does letting go feel like a huge if not impossible challenge?
      • How many levels deep has the thread gone (deeper is usually bad)?

      The other thing you can do is brush up on the Netiquette Guidelines. Additionally, the second link I listed is for the online version of Virginia Shea's highly regarded book on Netiquette. Maybe try giving that a once over (or at least hit the summary).

      At the end of the day it really comes down to whether you are willing to admit that you do get too emotionally involved in many of these heated debates/discussions and that you want to do something about that. It's certainly not easy -- and you can see that in some of my posts, where I have fought some of the same demons. Letting go can be really, really hard. And admitting it's a problem can be equally hard. One thing that helped me was starting the Do Not Feed the Trolls!!! thread. It's a great reminder of the importance of letting things go and that I do not have to get the last word in! I just wish I could say that I planned it that way!! :-)

      As I indicated above, I think there is one technical measure for success that you have at your disposal -- how deep do these heated debate threads go? Try toning things down and just letting things go when you get too emotionally involved and then compare how many levels deep your threads go to the threads that predate any changes. I expect there will be a noticeable difference.

      Good luck and best wishes!

      Elda Taluta; Sarks Sark; Ark Arks

        I can only offer advice.

        And I have repeatedly, and at length, rejected that advice. I've also stated my reason for doing so, repeatedly, consistently, and at length.

        I will do so again, in short, one last time.

        I did not ask for your advice unilateral, capricious judgements. I do not want your advice unilateral, capricious judgements.

        You, (and tirwhan; & Tye; & ysth; & herveus), have, unbidden, with neither mandate nor precedent, thrown your disparate, advice unilateral, capricious judgements at me.

        The fact that I have had to reject that advice unilateral, capricious, judgement, over and over, means that you do not accept my right to reject it. And that, is (attempted) imposition! And I do not recognise your right to make such impositions.

        Until such times as your collective advice unilateral, capricious, judgements become unified and codified, and ratified into some sort of consensus, to be applied fairly and universally, they are nothing more nor less than your collective attempts to impose your, (transient, dependent upon who, is saying what, to whom; and your moods), whimsical moral standards upon me. And anyone else you feel the prerogative to do likewise to.

        And that is at best discriminatory censorship.

        Until such time, I will treat others according to my personal ethics. And that, simply stated, is I will treat others in the same way that they treat me.

        Which means for instance, that we have continued a long, detailed, at times frustrating (no doubt for both of us), conversation. You have remained calm, lucid and free of sarcasm or other forms of one-upmanship. I hope you'll agree, so have I. You showed me respect, and I have returned it.

        And so it is with all those with whom I interact. Whilst the discussion remains on-topic and devoid of attempted one-upmanship, so do I. But throw stones at me, and as sure as eggs are eggs, I'll throw them right back.

        We are beginning to more than just repeat ourselves now, so the last words are yours. If this were a debate, it would be time to vote.


        Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
        "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
        In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.

        You'll have to forgive me, or not, for this second post, but I'd really like an answer to this. By /msg if you feel unable to do on the record.

        How many levels deep has the thread gone (deeper is usually bad)?

        At exactly what point in this 23/24/25 level deep thread should I have stopped responding? 10? 15? 20?

        Whichever number you pick, why didn't you apply that rule to yourself?

        And while you're at it, at what arbitrary point should I have cut off the OP in this thread that finishes up 27 levels deep with the OP thanking me profusely?

        And that's the trouble with arbitrary rules. They are nonsensical, ludicrous & inane.

        You (collectively, that small minority already identified), are asking me to conduct myself not according to some logical set of rules or guidelines, but to whatever flight of fancy pops into one of your heads at given any moment in time.


        Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
        "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
        In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
        No, I'm not! If I was really telling you what you can or cannot do then I would need to have some power over you -- e.g. the ability to revoke your account, abusing authority, etc. However, I have no power or authority over you. Well, maybe I should say that the only power I have over you is that which you give to me. An obvious example of this is when we let a troll get the best of us.

        That is classic troll manouver, trying to refute some behaviour while in the same breath exibiting precisely that behaviour. Take your own advice.

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