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I know I'm not alone in this

by Logicus
on Oct 02, 2011 at 12:14 UTC ( #929138=offtopicroot: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??

This posting has been designated as off-topic for the PerlMonks web site. Please do not respond to it.

Sure, this post is going to get me loads of negatives and probably irritate certain people, but I know I'm not alone the position I'm at and well connecting to others who feel my frustration and can empathise with it and help from the position I am currently at is, I feel, the only way I can make any progress right now, so negative votes and public humiliation be damned, I'm damn well going to say what I have to say and I don't care if you don't like it.

So for those who don't know the story, here it is in a nutshell, prior to discovering perlmonks and prior to really knowing much about CPAN, I built at great lengths of effort piecing together bits and bobs of information from various google searches, a system which I called aXML.

I honestly believed my many many months of effort had produced something good, something worth sharing with others, so I did, and the rest is as you might say, history. Because unbeknownst to me, in the dark recesses of the uncharted world of Perl, many others had trodden many similar paths, and come to unknown concensuses about how things should be done.

So I took it on board that my system was crap, utterly worthless, obsolete, the work of a moron who doesn't know any better... because that is the MESSAGE I was given by this place and the people who frequented it at the time. For a long time I drifted away from the world of programming entirely filled my time with doing computer technician work, and so on.

I never really stopped programming, or learning things, I just didn't open my gob up to talk about it on places like this, already knowing just exactly what to expect if I did.

After a long time, lots of expirements, a failed dotcom startup which was ruined by idiotic investors, I had reached a point of confidence that I could build large applications using my system, and that such large systems were very much neater and tidier than the spaghetti mess of various systems by various "professional" programmers I had been exposed to, and so I gained enough confidence in myself and my work to expose it again.

SLAM! same effect only now amplified and fuelled even harder by the apparency of EGO in my words that had taken years to build up the confidence to say. People called me delusional, sick, manipulative; alsorts of freaky projections on my character were made from alsorts of freaky angles as people applied lame armchair psychology to what was going on without a thought or a care as to accuracy of their assertions or the impact of their words.

Once again I reeled from experience, but I'm not going off for another 4 years again this time... oh no no no. Another experience I just had has just fuelled my fire again.

So I started looking into PSGI and Plack and really liking it. I did experiments and got a slightly modified version of aXML working very fast indeed. But the niggling doubts from my previous experiences continue to eat at me, and so I decided to approach a certain very well respected programmer on here, who I won't name, and I asked him if there was any chance he could chuck together a very basic little barebones set of files to start me off based on how he does things.

My intention was to adhere religiously to the pattern produced, to learn from my prior experiences with aXML as far as possible, but ultimately to ditch aXML and embrace the "kosher" way of doing things.

The guy's response was great, He seemed more than willing to put me on the right lines, but then he said something which struck me as odd at first. He said he would need a few days to put something together as everything was tied together with his current projects.

I waited a couple of days and then I thought, hold on, what ever happened to loose coupling? My system, the much vaunted and publicly labelled apparent pile of shite, that it is, is loosely coupled. I could zip up the core of the thing and pass it on to someone who, if they knew the system, could begin a new production with it almost instantly after editing just one config file.

If the performance of the system under stress wasn't a problem I would have no need whatsoever to continue this day after day struggle to find scraps of information and assemble this jigsaw because from my perspective, I'm reinventing wheels that I have already invented, re-solving problems I've already solved and had to solve alone out of necessity because the solutions which already existed were either unknown to me, or too difficult to find or understand.

I know I'm not alone in this position. I've heard it said that most perl programmers hand roll their own solutions. I know it's easy to just assume that EVERYONE who does so is going to come up with something which is of significantly lesser quality than the established systems. But then that is a generalisation, and sometimes it's going to be wrong... completely and totally dead wrong.

I don't expect, as one person so elequently put it, that the Perl world should fall at my feet and embrace my system, but it would be nice, if anyone ANYONE would look at the situation I have, and help me move forward from where I ACTUALLY am AT, instead of everyone just slating me off, voting me down, ignoring the problem and hoping I will go away.

I just want to add also, not everyone here has a job or is rowing their boat merrily down the stream. The internet in general dis-associates people from the true impact of their comments and words on others, whilst it might seem fun or trivial to have a little bash at the egomaniac with shit code, what you cannot possibly know is that when said egomaniac gets pissed off and declares "I'm going to the pub", it can very well be the case that said egomaniac drinks often because said egomaniac cannot afford FUCKING DENTISTRY.

Now as far as I am concerned, I built something sweet, went to share it openly and altruistically, and I received a sentence of PAIN from this place.

And I know I am not alone.

Comment on I know I'm not alone in this
Re: I know I'm not alone in this
by Tux (Monsignor) on Oct 02, 2011 at 12:51 UTC

    I read it all. I kept reading, even if you keep bashing on those that are in your audience. That is also probably your biggest problem. Even *if* your project, what you yourself call a big pile of shite, is worth pursuing, you fear away all those that might be interested.

    The monk-bashing indeed would earn you a lot on negative points, even though the whole store could be instructive enough to plus it. I won't vote this time.


    Enjoy, Have FUN! H.Merijn

      Why shouldn't I bash, as far as I can see that's what everyone else around here does.

      At first it was like, "were not interested at all and were not going to help you because your obviously too much of a noob to be worth any of our high and mighty time". And now it's "were not interested at all and were not going to help you because your a loud mouth copy cat, and bashing is a right reserved only for us and not you because your a waif, a stray a useless delusional retard and we don't like you or your stuff so begone.

        Why shouldn't I bash, as far as I can see that's what everyone else around here does.
        That is not my experience. I find Perlmonks one of the most friendly communities on the Internet.

        CountZero

        A program should be light and agile, its subroutines connected like a string of pearls. The spirit and intent of the program should be retained throughout. There should be neither too little or too much, neither needless loops nor useless variables, neither lack of structure nor overwhelming rigidity." - The Tao of Programming, 4.1 - Geoffrey James

        No, in both cases you were given constructive criticism which you took as condemnation. And frankly, you should be happy that anyone even looked at those posts as, for the most part they were rambling and incoherent, without any real code or even a simple description of what you were trying to accomplish.

        In addition, as soon anyone as anyone criticized your posts, you launched into insults, profanity, ad hominum attacks and disjointed philippics.

        In short, you brought all your problems on yourself. The Perlmonks are helpful to a fault; but not to whiny, self-absorbed, abusive fools.

        At this point I can't decide whether you are a really good troll, or a really sad nut-job. Either way, you seem to just want attention, and like a dog or a toddler, bad attention is better than none at all. This is the last attention you will get from me and I urge the rest of the monastery to follow suit.

        Finally, as you have been told over and over, if you really believe in your templating system then package it up and put it on CPAN. If it is really good then people will use it. The cream floats to the top. That is why Moose, Catalyst, Dancer and Template Toolkit (just to name a few) are widely used. They provide a solution to people's problems, so people use them.



        -pete
        "Worry is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere."
Re: I know I'm not alone in this
by armstd (Friar) on Oct 02, 2011 at 13:43 UTC

    I've read all this before. snakes and ladders So I'm not sure what the point of this is.

    I know I'm not alone in this position. I've heard it said that most perl programmers hand roll their own solutions.

    Unfortunately, I do see this often. Too much ego or just ignorance in the Perl developer community. Forget Perl, too many lazy developers in general would rather creatively solve problems already solved than solve problems not yet solved, because that's really hard.

    I know it's easy to just assume that EVERYONE who does so is going to come up with something which is of significantly lesser quality than the established systems. But then that is a generalisation, and sometimes it's going to be wrong... completely and totally dead wrong.

    I think that's not accurate. Many times that reinvented wheel does work better. Does it matter? Not really. The old wheel was round, it turned. It was good enough. But we didn't really need to improve gas mileage, we really needed to stop using fossil fuels. Because then we would really be making progress.

    So maybe the assumption is not necessarily that the new wheel will be of lesser quality, but certainly there's some amount of assumption that the reinventor of that wheel isn't really community-minded or interested in working toward the greater good.

    Now when reinventor starts asking for help because the new wheel isn't working out so great, they are now attempting to drain resources from the greater good. Now we're not just ignoring the greater good and not contributing to it, we're taking people's time away from it too. So yeah, there will be some resistance there. Some of the more kind hearted will see an opportunity to recruit reinventor toward the light and working toward the greater good. Others more jaded from past experience...well. Responses will clearly be mixed.

    Now when reinventor starts bashing and insulting the community for not helping fix his wheel the way he demands they do... W-T-F man.

    But I digress. Again. It's all been said before.

    --Dave

      Unfortunately, I do see this often

      Exactly! Ask yourself, how many new PHP programmers have or will ever write a session manager? Answer: probably none of them! Why? Cause PHP has that built in from the start, they are free from that sort of low-level drudgery by design.

      If it wasn't for all the things that are lost in the transition to PHP, then it would make sense to simply use that instead. But no, PHP sucks for lots of reasons I'm sure we are all aware of and there is no point going into here.

      When it comes to Perl, we have a huge huge array of choices, most of which are not apparent to the new user, so you get what happened to me 4 years ago, and without knowing I was reinventing wheels, I reinvented them anyway, at great length of effort putting together bits of information without having a complete picture. Infact Tizag was my first port of call for answers to problems with Perl for a long time, and there is no mention there at all of Perl Monks, CPAN etc so I didn't even know they existed until I was already a long way down a certain track of development.

      Unbeknownst to me was that said track was miles away from what was being developed elsewhere. I had no idea whether what I was doing was standard or non-standard, all I knew was that I had this idea for a system that worked in a way that allowed me to build projects and reuse nearly all of my code each time. I didn't know about Time::Hires or mod_perl or any of that stuff, and it didn't seem to matter because the code was not noticeably slow. Infact it takes a forking parallel stress script firing 16 simultaneous requests at my tiny little 256mb dev server to significantly slow it down, a result I would of been quite happy with not so long ago (before I found Plack/PSGI)

      The point is that it is all too easy get on a big high horse about code style while neglecting to take a real hard look at what the code actually does.

      From my perspective, having used said code for a number of years, I can freely admit my implementation of it is terribly ameture, but I will not admit that the system I built is worthless or without merit because that is simply not the case. I've seen enough spaghetti messes built on PHP to know that my code is not that bad, but when it comes to seeing a "quality" implementation done in Perl, there seems to be a lot of hot air about wheels and a few keyword names for popular frameworks, but very little actual information about how to go about building things using them, the nature of the paradigm, how it actually works... I can name you many frameworks and so on, but I've never seen a whole system using one of these things, and when I ask someone for a barebones example of a system, I get told that the code is all intertwinned with their work... a notion I find absolutely shocking coming from where I started and from using a system like aXML which is very loosely coupled to a point where I could throw a skeleton system together in minutes for someone else to develop into a working application from.

Re: I know I'm not alone in this
by Anonymous Monk on Oct 02, 2011 at 19:39 UTC

    And I know I am not alone.

    What do you mean by that?

      What do you think I mean by that?

        What do you think I mean by that?

        Maybe you're under the impression you're not the only glass shard in the bowl?

        It isn't clear what you mean, , which is why I asked.

Re: I know I'm not alone in this
by Jenda (Abbot) on Oct 02, 2011 at 20:02 UTC

    I'm still waiting for any me-toos ...

    If everyone is bashing you, maybe ... just maybe ... I know it's hard to even think about something like that ... but maybe ... it's because of you. We can't be nasty to you because of your skin color, because of your curly hair or long nose simply because we don't know any of this. All we know of you is what you wrote YOURSELF and if the general response is not nice it can only be what you wrote and HOW you wrote it that caused such response.

    P.S.: I find the sentence "a failed dotcom startup which was ruined by idiotic investors," rather characteristic. It's always "them", never you.

    Jenda
    Enoch was right!
    Enjoy the last years of Rome.

      Why did you even bother typing that in? Seriously think about it for a moment, if I am the sort of person that deserves to be told what you just said, then I would not listen, and if your wrong and infact I am not a person who needs to be told such a thing, then I would simply be patronised by it and likely to give a flippant response... like this one.
Re: I know I'm not alone in this
by Anonymous Monk on Oct 02, 2011 at 21:24 UTC

    Sure, this post is going to get me loads of negatives and probably irritate certain people, but I know I'm not alone the position I'm at and well connecting to others who feel my frustration and can empathise with it and help from the position I am currently at is, I feel, the only way I can make any progress right now, so negative votes and public humiliation be damned, I'm damn well going to say what I have to say and I don't care if you don't like it.

    So for those who don't know the story, here it is in a nutshell, prior to discovering perlmonks and prior to really knowing much about CPAN, I built at great lengths of effort piecing together bits and bobs of information from various google searches, a system which I called aXML.

    I honestly believed my many many months of effort had produced something good, something worth sharing with others, so I did, and the rest is as you might say, history. Because unbeknownst to me, in the dark recesses of the uncharted world of Perl, many others had trodden many similar paths, and come to unknown concensuses about how things should be done.

    So I took it on board that my system was crap, utterly worthless, obsolete, the work of a moron who doesn't know any better... because that is the MESSAGE I was given by this place and the people who frequented it at the time. For a long time I drifted away from the world of programming entirely filled my time with doing computer technician work, and so on.

    I never really stopped programming, or learning things, I just didn't open my gob up to talk about it on places like this, already knowing just exactly what to expect if I did.

    After a long time, lots of expirements, a failed dotcom startup which was ruined by idiotic investors, I had reached a point of confidence that I could build large applications using my system, and that such large systems were very much neater and tidier than the spaghetti mess of various systems by various "professional" programmers I had been exposed to, and so I gained enough confidence in myself and my work to expose it again.

    SLAM! same effect only now amplified and fuelled even harder by the apparency of EGO in my words that had taken years to build up the confidence to say. People called me delusional, sick, manipulative; alsorts of freaky projections on my character were made from alsorts of freaky angles as people applied lame armchair psychology to what was going on without a thought or a care as to accuracy of their assertions or the impact of their words.

    Once again I reeled from experience, but I'm not going off for another 4 years again this time... oh no no no. Another experience I just had has just fuelled my fire again.

    So I started looking into PSGI and Plack and really liking it. I did experiments and got a slightly modified version of aXML working very fast indeed. But the niggling doubts from my previous experiences continue to eat at me, and so I decided to approach a certain very well respected programmer on here, who I won't name, and I asked him if there was any chance he could chuck together a very basic little barebones set of files to start me off based on how he does things.

    My intention was to adhere religiously to the pattern produced, to learn from my prior experiences with aXML as far as possible, but ultimately to ditch aXML and embrace the "kosher" way of doing things.

    The guy's response was great, He seemed more than willing to put me on the right lines, but then he said something which struck me as odd at first. He said he would need a few days to put something together as everything was tied together with his current projects.

    I waited a couple of days and then I thought, hold on, what ever happened to loose coupling? My system, the much vaunted and publicly labelled apparent pile of shite, that it is, is loosely coupled. I could zip up the core of the thing and pass it on to someone who, if they knew the system, could begin a new production with it almost instantly after editing just one config file.

    If the performance of the system under stress wasn't a problem I would have no need whatsoever to continue this day after day struggle to find scraps of information and assemble this jigsaw because from my perspective, I'm reinventing wheels that I have already invented, re-solving problems I've already solved and had to solve alone out of necessity because the solutions which already existed were either unknown to me, or too difficult to find or understand.

    I know I'm not alone in this position. I've heard it said that most perl programmers hand roll their own solutions. I know it's easy to just assume that EVERYONE who does so is going to come up with something which is of significantly lesser quality than the established systems. But then that is a generalisation, and sometimes it's going to be wrong... completely and totally dead wrong.

    I don't expect, as one person so elequently put it, that the Perl world should fall at my feet and embrace my system, but it would be nice, if anyone ANYONE would look at the situation I have, and help me move forward from where I ACTUALLY am AT, instead of everyone just slating me off, voting me down, ignoring the problem and hoping I will go away.

    I just want to add also, not everyone here has a job or is rowing their boat merrily down the stream. The internet in general dis-associates people from the true impact of their comments and words on others, whilst it might seem fun or trivial to have a little bash at the egomaniac with shit code, what you cannot possibly know is that when said egomaniac gets pissed off and declares "I'm going to the pub", it can very well be the case that said egomaniac drinks often because said egomaniac cannot afford FUCKING DENTISTRY.

    Now as far as I am concerned, I built something sweet, went to share it openly and altruistically, and I received a sentence of PAIN from this place.

    And I know I am not alone.

    How?

      How what?
Re: I know I'm not alone in this
by chromatic (Archbishop) on Oct 02, 2011 at 23:58 UTC
    I waited a couple of days and then I thought, hold on, what ever happened to loose coupling?

    Does it not seem premature to judge the quality of the code before you've seen it?


    Improve your skills with Modern Perl: the free book.

      I'm not judging, I'm hoping for something Triple-Mc-Awesome beyond my wildest dreams which revolutionises the way I look at Perl in such a way that I never look back... I just can't understand why it has to be dis-entangled from a given project, as that ability was one of the things I thought was one of the better points of my system; start a new project, copy 2 files edit one of them (the config file) and then start coding actions. Simple as that. I guess I will come to understand the difficulty involved when I understand the way the thing works, thing is I haven't written a line of Perl since the other day when I asked, because I have this thing about not writing anything I think is possibly already obsolete and there is a good chance that if the code does revolutionise my view then I will be wasting keystrokes coding anything before I see it.

        If I had client code as part of a project under development and needed or wanted to share some of it to ask for help or help someone else, I'd take great care to scrub out anything client or security related.

        Some posters have accidentally posted database passwords in questions here before.


        Improve your skills with Modern Perl: the free book.

Re: I know I'm not alone in this
by Anonymous Monk on Oct 04, 2011 at 21:47 UTC
    WHAA WHAA MY PUSSY HURTS!!!
      Well get it de-clawed then.

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