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Re^2: Hockey Sticks

by moritz (Cardinal)
on Jan 17, 2012 at 06:11 UTC ( #948254=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re: Hockey Sticks
in thread Hockey Sticks

Not at all. Waiting implies standing still.


Comment on Re^2: Hockey Sticks
Re^3: Hockey Sticks
by sundialsvc4 (Monsignor) on Jan 17, 2012 at 16:16 UTC

    Shrug...   Whatever.

    I am the Customer.   I literally do this for a living, literally every weekday.   Give me a pragmatic, rugged, practical tool that actually does something dramatically useful.   “And hurry up, willya?”   Perl-5 is such a tool.   Nevertheless, to paraphrase a bunch of Biblical demons (Acts 19:15):   “Perl-5 I know, but who are you?”   I am encouraged by the promise of Perl-6 and am sensitive to the diligent efforts of those who are working on it ... I have tremendous respect for people who are capable of working at that level ... but, a product has to ship, if only so that the real-world professional community can kick the tires and discover what (else) needs to be changed or fixed.

    When it ships, you’re not done.   At this point, you will have barely started.   A tool is built for a craftsman’s use, but there have been no opportunities given yet for any of those craftsmen to determine if it is truly useful for anything.   Right now, from a purely market-driven point of view, you’re Perl-6 is just an armchair quarterback, known to be the offspring of a great and well-respected player, but himself never tested on the field of battle.

      I literally do this for a living, literally every weekday. Give me a pragmatic, rugged, practical tool that actually does something dramatically useful.

      Perl 5.

      “And hurry up, willya?”

      "Already are. And we'll be even faster if you come help!"

      I am encouraged by the promise of Perl-6 and am sensitive to the diligent efforts of those who are working on it

      Sounds great.

      I have tremendous respect for people who are capable of working at that level ... but, a product has to ship, if only so that the real-world professional community can kick the tires and discover what (else) needs to be changed or fixed.

      I'm amazed that you think that you are sensitive, say you have tremendous respect for the people working on Perl 6, and yet think it makes sense to make this braindead obvious point about shipping a product, as if they didn't understand it as well as you do.

      there have been no opportunities given yet for any of those craftsmen to determine if it is truly useful for anything.

      What?!? It's an open source project. Anyone can download and try any of several compilers at any time.

      More to the point, one of the compiler projects, Rakudo, created a distribution called Rakudo Star, first released in 2010 (and updated many times since, and due another update soon) for no other reason than to do exactly what you ask. This was promoted, and arguably slowed down the overall project, so please understand how frustrating it is to hear you say it hasn't been done!

      Right now, from a purely market-driven point of view, Perl-6 is just an armchair quarterback, known to be the offspring of a great and well-respected player, but himself never tested on the field of battle.

      Right. And that will remain the case until it isn't. What else do you expect? If you want Christmas to come earlier, then CONTRIBUTE.

Re^3: Hockey Sticks
by Jenda (Abbot) on Jan 17, 2012 at 16:36 UTC

    And the point is? If I'm waiting for a bus I am (prettymuch) standing still. It's the bus that moves. Hopefully. It's good to hear the bus nearing though.

    Jenda
    Enoch was right!
    Enjoy the last years of Rome.

      If I'm waiting for a bus that still is being constructed, with no time frame of delivery other than "before Christmas", and has been under construction for 11.5 years, while the bus that it is supposed to replace has been upgraded several times, and it now being upgraded on a yearly basis, I'd take the old bus to work every day.

      I'd consider Perl6 to "be there" when there's a business who makes enough money with Perl6 that it's willing to donate EUR 100,000 to the Perl6 maintenance fund, with several other Perl6 companies funding YAP6C to the extend they run a profit.

        If I'm waiting for a bus that still is being constructed ... I'd take the old bus to work every day.

        Precisely.

        I'd consider Perl6 to "be there" when...

        Both the places I live at are stops well short of the stop you consider "there". Perl 6 has already passed my "weekend" place, which is when I have time to help. I expect to hear it approaching my other place, which involves a non-demanding production project, within about a year. I see several other interesting stops on the way prior to the destination you are considering, but to each their own.

      If you're waiting for a new programming language or compiler the same way that you're waiting for a bus (not doing much else at that time, and basically blocking your further actions on the arrival), you're doing something very wrong.

        ... you're doing something very wrong.

        Do you not suggest taking the front page of Rakudo.org at its word? After all, that summer 2011 Rakudo Star nom release has been just a few weeks away for months now.

        Look, I know as well as anyone how fungible volunteer time and interest are not—but the lack of any releases (let alone usable releases) combined with the perpetual party line that it's ready if you just clap your hands and believe enough is really, really not working. If anything, it's completely counterproductive.

        I gave my suggestions as to what to do a long time ago; take them or leave them. (I repeat though: making and meeting commitments is a prerequisite to the trust of your users.)

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