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Re^5: Hockey Sticks

by chromatic (Archbishop)
on Jan 22, 2012 at 07:16 UTC ( #949233=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re^4: Hockey Sticks
in thread Hockey Sticks

... you're doing something very wrong.

Do you not suggest taking the front page of Rakudo.org at its word? After all, that summer 2011 Rakudo Star nom release has been just a few weeks away for months now.

Look, I know as well as anyone how fungible volunteer time and interest are not—but the lack of any releases (let alone usable releases) combined with the perpetual party line that it's ready if you just clap your hands and believe enough is really, really not working. If anything, it's completely counterproductive.

I gave my suggestions as to what to do a long time ago; take them or leave them. (I repeat though: making and meeting commitments is a prerequisite to the trust of your users.)


Comment on Re^5: Hockey Sticks
Be nice! (Re^6: Hockey Sticks)
by raiph (Hermit) on Jan 22, 2012 at 21:27 UTC
    Do you not suggest taking the front page of Rakudo.org at its word? ... I repeat though: making and meeting commitments is a prerequisite to the trust of your users.
    The front page post commits to a compiler release within 3 weeks. A compiler release was made 21 days later. For more details, see this comment.

    I accept that your confusion could be said to be the fault of the Rakudo and/or Perl 6 projects. In particular, Rakudo.org has long needed an update to reflect what's actually going on. More generally, misinformation about Perl 6 abounds. I'm not sure it makes sense for us to go around fixing all the myriad pages about Perl 6 right now. But I acknowledge it's a big problem.

    In the meantime, I again appeal to Fivers to view themselves as a 25 year older brother with a butterfly loving but late-blooming 12 year old sister. Occasional fights are OK, but, in general, be nice!

Re^6: Hockey Sticks
by raiph (Hermit) on Jul 10, 2012 at 00:27 UTC

    As I've carefully explained in my January responses in this thread to chromatic, he had misread the rakudo.org front page, and had misunderstood what had been happening with Rakudo releases. This July 2012 update will hopefully make the reality crystal clear.

    The latest version of Rakudo, a Perl 6 compiler, has to date been formally released monthly for around 5 years, with the exception of one month in mid-2011.

    Rakudo Star, a bundling of a version of the Rakudo compiler plus extras (modules, doc, etc.) has to date been formally released quarterly or monthly for about 2 years, with the exception of skipping October 2011. It has been released monthly since Jan 2012.

    Of the lastest, Rakudo Star 2012.06, ajs, who I believe had left Perl 6 alone for a year or so, says "I can't begin to stress what a dream it is to work in Rakudo Star 2012.06 compared to any other implementation of P6 I've ever touched".

    chromatic is right about the need to see past the enthusiasm of the likes of myself and ajs (and, at one time, and hopefully one day again, chromatic himself), but I am convinced it is important that P5 folk take Larry Wall, and hence P6, seriously.

      Firstly a release has a meaning, taking the current snapshot of the trunk at some fixed date of a month and shipping isn't a release. I don't know from where the term release originated. But when I think of a release, I think of it analogous to a movie release. The movie is 'done'. There can be sequels to the movie, or further parts released later. But the movie released on a date is 'finished' and 'completed' in a defined scope.

      What you are talking about is not a release, but I think the appropriate word for it is milestone. You achieve a milestone. And you have internal goals achieved through aiming to get to that milestone.

      Now lets talk about taking Perl 6 seriously. Let me tell you everyone that genuinely critics Perl 6 has at one time taken Perl 6 too seriously, hoped and waited for endless time and then given up. I see some problems in marketing and talking about Perl 6. Firstly you need to come up with something solid and then announce, or you shouldn't announce at all. Because the words 'Production release' , '1.0.0', 'ready', 'done' have semantics beyond their dictionary meanings in the software world. Its something like the word 'bug', do we actually have biological worms and pests in software? No! But those words have different meanings beyond their dictionary context.

      For most Perl 5 developers, 'Production ready', 'complete', 'done' or any other equivalent word means software at least as much ready and usable as Perl 5 is. There fore if you ever want Perl 6 to be 'complete', its likely to never be- considering the scope and breadth of the work. Its likely to take eternity to capture it as a whole in entirety. Its really huge, I mean Perl 6 specification is something which you don't aim to achieve in one go! Its not possible.

      Its like linux, Imagine if Linus went out to write Linux as it exists today when he was a student. I doubt if it would ever be possible. Big, things including Perl 5 itself are built over years! Incrementally and slowly! The right path for Perl 6 should have been in that direction. We needed a Production ready release that could be grown further. Then we could have evolved, extended or do whatever we wanted.

      But instead what we have now is some 3 implementations(?), None of them you could compare to Perl 5 level readiness. None of them complete in scope they aimed for. I seriously doubt if the current path will lead to anything usable in coming years either. Its these reasons why people find it difficult to take it seriously anymore.

      Programming world is swiftly moving, and new things keep coming every year. I doubt if Perl 6 will even be relevant if it ever comes out in the far future.

        What the Parrot, Rakudo and niecza teams ship is what wikipedia defines as a "software release".

        The Rakudo compiler release process is indeed much less formal than Perl 5's, but there is much more to it than you suggest. Patrick is currently rewriting the release management document; visit #perl6 if you're interested in more details.

        > I see some problems in marketing and talking about Perl 6.

        Oh boy, me too! Forget marketing. Just talking about P6 where it is ostensibly supposed to be discussed, eg in this meditation, or announcing releases using the Perl reddit tag, routinely attracts trolls.

        > Firstly you need to come up with something solid and then announce, or you shouldn't announce at all.

        Which announcements are you talking about? The monthly releases (or whatever you wish to call them)? Would you call this meditation an announcement?

        > the words 'Production release' , '1.0.0', 'ready', 'done' have semantics beyond their dictionary meanings in the software world.

        Right. I'm unaware of anyone applying those words to Perl 6 as it currently stands. Perhaps the closest is that Larry has recently begun to talk about productizing Perl 6 over the "next year or two".

        > For most Perl 5 developers, 'Production ready', 'complete', 'done' or any other equivalent word means software at least as much ready and usable as Perl 5 is. Therefore if you ever want Perl 6 to be 'complete', its likely to never be- considering the scope and breadth of the work.

        I agree. It would be a mistake to only ship P6 when it's "complete" in that extreme sense.

        > I seriously doubt if the current path will lead to anything usable in coming years either.

        Several users have P6 solutions currently in use in production settings; how could they if it's not usable?

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