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Re: Re: Omigawd! Surprised by Reality! (WHO CARES???)

by sierrathedog04 (Hermit)
on Jul 13, 2001 at 23:55 UTC ( #96564=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re: Omigawd! Surprised by Reality! (WHO CARES???)
in thread Omigawd! Surprised by Reality!

What angry reaction? The crowd members are angry at me. I am not angry at Abigail.

Look. It is reasonable to think that someone who takes the name 'Abigail' is a woman.

It is reasonable to view an extremely competent woman coder as someone who avoided internalizing the stereotype that competent coders are young and male.

It is reasonable to view such extremely competent female coders as role models.

It is reasonable therefore to be disappointed if 'Abigail' is a man. 'Abigail' may be a marvelous person. He may not have had to overcome the stereotype of the young male hacker.

So I am disappointed that someone I thought of as a role model who defeated the stereotype of the young male hacker may not be a role model in that regard after all.

The intense reaction to my commonsense musings is simply the mass thinking of a crowd reinforcing itself...


Comment on Re: Re: Omigawd! Surprised by Reality! (WHO CARES???)
Re: Re: Re: Omigawd! Surprised by Reality! (WHO CARES???)
by dragonchild (Archbishop) on Jul 14, 2001 at 00:11 UTC
    It is reasonable to think that someone who takes the name 'Abigail' is a woman.

    In a gender-myopic society like the US, maybe. On the Net, when I have no clue (or desire for such a clue) as to the genders of people around me ... no. It's not reasonable.

    It is reasonable to view such extremely competent female coders as role models.

    I would hope you also view merlyn, tye, and japhy (to name a few) as role models as well! The root cause of why there are so few <gender> in <profession> is precisely because people differentiate between the genders. Gender should NEVER be an issue. Ever. If a woman wanted to be a fireman, great! Just make sure she can lift 250 pounds and carry it 50 feet down a ladder. Most men can't do that. That's all I care about.

    It is reasonable therefore to be disappointed if 'Abigail' is a man. 'Abigail' may be a marvelous person. He may not have had to overcome the stereotype of the young male hacker.

    No. It is NOT reasonable to be disappointed. Is it important for a role model to have overcome great distress? What about the role model who didn't have to, yet still succeeded? There is too much of a victim-overcomes-strife mentality in the USA (and Europe) today. Just do your best and succeed! Whatever happened to that?!?

    What I'm saying, sierrathedog04, is this - you have said "Aw, shucks. <Name> isn't a member of <Group>, so they aren't a role model." Put like that, it doesn't sound so great, does it?

    I still strive to achieve Abigail's ease of coding, sparse writing style (!), and willingness to work with those who probably piss her the hell off.

    Yes. "her". Abigail is female, irregardless of the typist's plumbing.

    Just think about it this way - is her code any worse cause the person typing is male? Is her knowledge any less cause the person typing is male?

    Or, you could consider the reverse question. What if george suddenly was revealed as a female. george happens to be a great programmer, similar to Abigail's stature. Is george's knowledge suddenly greater simply because the typist is female?? I would seriously hope the answer is a very quick "No". Cause, if it's not, you have your own prejudicial demons to work through. No, you're not chauvinist. You're worse - you're a pitier. Instead of treating a person differently because of their gender, treat them the same, despite their gender. Try that for a change.

      In a gender-myopic society like the US, maybe. On the Net, when I have no clue (or desire for such a clue) as to the genders of people around me ... no. It's not reasonable.
      Well, I live in the "gender-myopic" US, so to me it was reasonable to think that 'Abigail' was a woman. I don't live on the Net. The Net is not a place. It is a protocol. I live in the US.
      I would hope you also view merlyn, tye, and japhy (to name a few) as role models as well!
      Not to mention RMS and Linus and Bill Joy and... However, RMS and Linus at least were very young and male when they first achieved great success as hackers. So RMS and Linus are not role models on how to avoid internalizing the stereotype of the young male hacker. And neither is 'Abigail' no matter what other areas she may be able to provide a role model for.
      There is too much of a victim-overcomes-strife mentality in the USA (and Europe) today. Just do your best and succeed! Whatever happened to that?!?
      Okay. So you object to having a role model who shows you how to overcome strife. So what? Why should I be limited by your objections? If I wish to view female hackers as role models who defeated the myth of the young male hacker, then tough. You don't have to agree with me.
      What I'm saying, sierrathedog04, is this - you have said "Aw, shucks. <Name> isn't a member of <Group>, so they aren't a role model." Put like that, it doesn't sound so great, does it?
      No it doesn't. But you said it, not me. I merely said that excellent female hackers are role models in defeating the myth of the young male hacker. What you choose to say is your problem, not mine.
      Yes. "her". Abigail is female, irregardless of the typist's plumbing.
      As I have said, when I started this thread I had no idea that 'Abigail' was a popular member of the Perl community whose manner of addressing lifestyle issues won her great support. I thought 'Abigail' was some guy fooling around on the web with a female pseudonym.
      Just think about it this way - is her code any worse cause the person typing is male? Is her knowledge any less cause the person typing is male?
      Time out. Do you realize that I am a male? Have you jumped so far overboard that you are now accusing me of prejudice against males?
      you're a pitier.
      I suspect that it is you who feel the pity, for the person you pretend to defend.
        Well, I live in the "gender-myopic" US, so to me it was reasonable to think that 'Abigail' was a woman. I don't live on the Net. The Net is not a place. It is a protocol. I live in the US.

        The Net is a place. It is a world, with many areas to explore. One such area is PerlMonks. Another is the Yahoo portal. There is a protocol that underlies the Net, in the same fashion that the laws of physics form a protocol that underlies the "Real World". That doesn't make the Net, and what happens on it, any less real.

        Do you realize that I am a male?

        No, I don't know that you're male. It doesn't matter to me what gender you are. I have always taken your posts and evaluated each post solely in the light of your previous posts. Nothing more.

        ... the myth of the young male hacker.

        Let's address this for a moment. Most programmers I know, who are in the business, don't have a male hacker myth, especially not those who work primarily in Perl. I have no idea what the people who create Perl think, but I know about the people I come across. I've worked with Perl written by men and Perl written by women. In every case, I've preferred the code written by someone intelligent and experienced, irregardless of gender. In some cases, the author was male, in some female. And, in talking to my colleagues (who are consultants, like me, in several areas of the USA), the same holds true.

        The "male hacker" is a wonderful literary device. It does hold true, to some degree, solely due to the fact that men are encouraged over women to enter engineering fields. But, nowhere near the level that many people think it's true.

        In addition, the "male hacker" is generally a piss-poor programmer. Most hacked code tends to be poorly formatted, with no comments, and is very difficult to extend. I personally don't ever want to work with hacked code, unless I know the hacker.

Re: Re: Re: Omigawd! Surprised by Reality! (WHO CARES???)
by Anonymous Monk on Jul 14, 2001 at 01:46 UTC

    You may be a very reasonable man, but PL/1 was a reasonable programming language*. Would you want to spend time with it? The point is that you've made many individual reasonable assumptions, but the whole is not better than the parts. You have taken your reasonable assumptions and corrupted the logic to come up with something faulty.

    What's worse, you have embarrassed a member in good standing in this community while doing this, and brought shame to perlmonks for having such a pointless discussion.

    Please do not reply to this post, I will not make any further points. I will not cast a -- vote on your post, because I feel it has received enough bad attention already. Next time you feel inclined to share something with the community that seems broken, remember: "select is broken".

    Anonymous Monk

    * In PL/1, if you tried to say "25 + 1 / 3", the result was 5.333...; not 25.333. This was because of many "reasonable assumptions" the programmer's made in the logic of PL/1.

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