Re^9: 20 most important Perl Best Practices

in reply to Re^8: 20 most important Perl Best Practices
in thread 20 most important Perl Best Practices

I got a reply, and (with permission) offer it here for posterity:

Hi XXXXXX,
 
I looked at the cartoon, and did not find it particularly offensive. I
+ did
not find it particularly funny either. I looked at it with my husband 
+who
works in IT, and he did not really find it funny either.
 
I agree with you that the cartoon is more about men's innate sexist jo
+kes,
rather than being sexist itself. But I am sure that there would be som
+e
women who would feel otherwise, and would feel that the cartoon is jus
+t one
of many examples of the objectification of women.
 
best wishes,
Nadje
 
 
On 29 August 2012 11:33, <XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXXXXX.net> wrote:
 
> Hi XXXXXXXXX,
>  
> This is a kind of off the wall request.
>  
> I wonder if you would consider looking at a cartoon:
>  
>     <redacted>
>  
> And briefly offering your opinion on whether it is offensive to wome
+n?
>  
> This come about from an on-line discussion amongst (mostly) male
> programmers, some of whom think it might be.
>  
> My personal conclusion -- white anglo-saxon male atheist 30 years ma
+rried
> to a muslim women -- is that it is not offensive to women, but rathe
+r makes
> men's innate, stereotypical reactions the butt of the joke.
>  
> But I would like a second opinion.
>  
> Many thanks for your time, regardless of your decision,
>  
> XXXXXXXXXXXXX
>  
> Ps. for reference, 
>    Perl is a computer programming language; 
>    Moose is a new, popular, but very heavyweight add-on library for 
+that language. 
>    Mouse is another add-on library providing similar functionality, 
+but in a much lighter form.
>  
-- 
Nadje XXXXXX
Professor of Gender Studies
http://www.XXXXX.ac.uk/genderstudies/
XXXX UCU Equality & Diversity Officer
XXXX, University of XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXX Street, XXXXXX XXXXXX
XXXXXX XXXH 0XG, UK
Tel. (44) (0) XXXXXXXX 4547
Room XXXA
[download]

Why ask? Because I find her opinion more authoritative than that of the ghosts out of the woodwork.

What do I draw from her reply?

That even when men are trying to do the right thing and be sensitive to women, they often still do the wrong thing for the right reasons. Like shouting at a deaf man, or trying guide a blind man by grabbing his arm, their attempts to 'fix things' are often worse than what they are trying to fix.

Like the Heath&Safety-gone-mad of an archaeologist being forced to wear a fluorescent jacket, hardhat and goggles whilst using a trowel in a 6 inch deep scrape in the middle of an open field on a sunny day; overzealousness in trying to "be sensitive" to women is just as counter productive.

It engenders groans and apathy and worse, due to the overload of "do nots" and "must nots" and "Shhh! There's a girl coming in", which completely detract from the less frequent but far more serious issues & matters that *need* to be dealt with.

They are often at the same time, patronising, futile and unnecessary.

Think about the issues, talk about the issues, make it possible and desirable for women to point the issues out and suggest how to correct them, but don't overreact and don't do the "male thing" and try to 'fix' everything. Listen first, and tackle the big things in consultation with women. With luck, the rest will sort itself.

With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday'

Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.

"Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".

In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.

RIP Neil Armstrong

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Ghosts out of the Woodwork by chromatic (Archbishop) on Aug 30, 2012 at 17:37 UTC
Because I find her opinion more authoritative than that of the ghosts out of the woodwork. If you want to do the right thing and not patronize people, you could start by not immediately dismissing what they have to say. A member of this very forum said "Hey, I felt uncomfortable." Three times. Something you posted caused that reaction in a member of this forum, sufficient that she posted about it twice in this thread and even wrote a separate blog post about it elsewhere. Rather than take her at her word, you asked someone outside of this community—outside of the context of this community and outside of the audience of what you posted—for a reaction, and you're willing to dismiss what a member of this community and the target audience of what you posted because someone else gave you an answer you like better. My favorite part is where you write "ghosts out of the woodwork", as if people don't really feel uncomfortable. Are we to believe that they were just waiting in hiding to pounce on you for anything you do that might possibly give then an opening? Do they not have feelings of their own?	[reply]
Re: Ghosts out of the Woodwork by BrowserUk (Patriarch) on Aug 30, 2012 at 17:42 UTC
The ghosts out of the woodwork were all men. I replied to tinita directly as soon as I was aware of her involvement in the thread. If you follow the chronology, you'll see the email to Nadje (and two others) were already sent. Posting her reply here was a) a matter of courtesy; b) fulfilling my commitment to do so. With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday' Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error. "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority". In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice. RIP Neil Armstrong	[reply]
Re^10: 20 most important Perl Best Practices by tinita (Parson) on Aug 31, 2012 at 01:08 UTC
That even when men are trying to do the right thing and be sensitive to women, they often still do the wrong thing for the right reasons. I think this thread is not an example for patronizing. There might be women who don't like to be subjects to those discussions, and I would prefer to not be either. Maybe sometime it's not necessary any more? Like shouting at a deaf man, or trying guide a blind man by grabbing his arm, their attempts to 'fix things' are often worse than what they are trying to fix. yeah, you could ask before grabbing his arm, and it might be annoying if it happens often, but it's still showing a good will and is better than running in the blind man's way. And I don't read anything comparable to grabbing one man's arm here. Maybe you can ask one of your experts if pemungkah did "the wrong thing" in their eyes? which completely detract from the less frequent but far more serious issues & matters that need* to be dealt with.* oh yeah, we should do something about the global warming. eat less meat - very easy and it works for me! (SCNR)	[reply]
Re^11: 20 most important Perl Best Practices by BrowserUk (Patriarch) on Aug 31, 2012 at 08:56 UTC
Maybe you can ask one of your experts if pemungkah did "the wrong thing" in their eyes? Having spent the last 8 days defending, against the assembled hoards, my right to say that I found something that someone else linked, funny, as a result of his implications leveled at me, but not the original poster, I have my own very clear opinion on that. With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday' Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error. "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority". In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice. RIP Neil Armstrong	[reply]

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