puts vs say

dgaramond2 has asked for the wisdom of the Perl Monks concerning the following question:

Just wondering why perl 5.10's new say() doesn't have a little bit of intelligence like Ruby's puts(), i.e. if the string to be printed already ends in a newline, it doesn't print additional newline. say() just add a newline no matter what. What was the rationale for this? I thought most people want puts()' behaviour most of the time (at least I do).

Comment on puts vs say

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re: puts vs say by hangon (Deacon) on Feb 28, 2009 at 19:06 UTC
No thank you. I would prefer that simple functions not make arbitrary decisions under the guise of "smartness". What if I want that extra newline? Using say is perfect for temporarily peppering code for debugging. As such, it's not helpful for it to have variable behavior. With say $foo, I want to be able to tell if $foo has a newline of its own. Then what about formatting text with blank lines? Does put chomp one or multiple newlines? What about whitespace between or after newlines? Do you really want to worry about behavior of a bunch of potential edge cases for what should be a simple function? When the convenience of say gives way to unnecessary complexity its usefulness diminishes.	[reply]
Re: puts vs say by chromatic (Archbishop) on Feb 28, 2009 at 18:26 UTC
How would it know when people don't want the final line autochomped?	[reply]
Re: puts vs say by ikegami (Patriarch) on Feb 28, 2009 at 19:11 UTC
That means I'd have to use `say("$var\n");` [download] to make sure `say` prints what I want it to print. That's pretty dumb because the whole point of `say` is to remove the need to specify "`\n`".	[reply] [d/l] [select]
Re^2: puts vs say by massa (Hermit) on Mar 01, 2009 at 12:18 UTC
ikegami, you and CountZero below got the original question wrong. The case is that, in ruby, `puts "a\n"` [download] outputs the same as `puts "a"` [download] And that is: `a` *followed by a newline. The question is: why doesn't `say` does the same?* I happen to think that autochomping-before-printing-and-then-printing-a-newline is an interesting piece of DWIMery (if one really wants an `a` followed by two newlines, `puts "a\n\n"` always works. Of course, `sub puts { local $_ = pop; chomp; push @_, $_; goto &say }` [download] should also work :-) []s, HTH, Massa (κς,πμ,πλ)	[reply] [d/l] [select]
Re^3: puts vs say by ikegami (Patriarch) on Mar 01, 2009 at 18:27 UTC
You have not changed my understanding of anything. One of us hasn't made their point clearly enough, and I'm guessing it's me. Most of the time, I generate the text I output. I don't want it to be modified by my output function. When using `puts`, the only way to guarantee the text I generated will be output with a newline added is to add one myself. `say($var); # Newline added. That's why I use "say". puts($var); # Newline maybe added. Useless for text I generated. puts("$var\n"); # Newline added, but purpose defied.` [download] Yes, they are uses for `puts`, but there are for `say` too. Don't change `say`, add `puts`. But that's not to say ruby's `puts` makes sense either. Since the goal of `puts` is to prevent third parties from messing the output, it makes no sense for `puts` to chomp just one newline. It should remove all but one, adding one if necessary.	[reply] [d/l] [select]
Re: puts vs say by jettero (Monsignor) on Feb 28, 2009 at 12:07 UTC
I definitely agree with this. say() should be smart. What gain is there really but just adding a \n? Regular old print() is just fine if I have to keep track of the \n anyway. -Paul	[reply]
Re^2: puts vs say by Your Mother (Archbishop) on Feb 13, 2021 at 07:48 UTC
For me it’s preferable to `print` 90% of the time. One example in particular comes to mind– `say join ", ", @some_bunch_of_stuff; # vs this which I find incredibly annoying– print join(", ", @some_bunch_of_stuff), "\n";` [download]	[reply] [d/l] [select]
Re^2: puts vs say by Anonymous Monk on Feb 28, 2009 at 12:30 UTC
It was ported from perl6, so it does what perl6 say does.	[reply]
Re^3: puts vs say by jettero (Monsignor) on Feb 28, 2009 at 12:37 UTC
I get it. I didn't say it does chomp, I said it should chomp. -Paul	[reply]
Re^4: puts vs say by LanX (Saint) on Feb 28, 2009 at 13:10 UTC
Re^5: puts vs say by jettero (Monsignor) on Feb 28, 2009 at 13:13 UTC
Some notes below your chosen depth have not been shown here
Re: puts vs say by bruno (Friar) on Feb 28, 2009 at 13:38 UTC
I would also appreciate it if `say` added a space or tab between elements, (a la `local $, = " "`).	[reply] [d/l] [select]
Re: puts vs say by CountZero (Bishop) on Mar 01, 2009 at 11:40 UTC
The rationale is simple: `print "$hello\n";` [download] `say $hello;` [download] Six less keystrokes! CountZero A program should be light and agile, its subroutines connected like a string of pearls. The spirit and intent of the program should be retained throughout. There should be neither too little or too much, neither needless loops nor useless variables, neither lack of structure nor overwhelming rigidity." - The Tao of Programming, 4.1 - Geoffrey James	[reply] [d/l] [select]
Re^2: puts vs say by dgaramond2 (Monk) on Mar 04, 2009 at 12:40 UTC
But puts() saves even more keystrokes. Aside from the above case, there's also the (quite common): print $hello, ($hello =~ /\n$/ ? "" : "\n"); puts $hello; Anyway, I don't want to start a flamewar here. Obviously Larry et al didn't think puts-like behaviour attractive enough to make say() behave the same. Oh well. We can always define puts() ourselves.	[reply]
Re^2: puts vs say by Bod (Parson) on Feb 13, 2021 at 00:49 UTC
Six less keystrokes! Using the 18 keystrokes in `use feature 'say';` somewhat negates the saving really... I never think to use `say` - it seems as easy to use `print` and add a newline myself if I need one!	[reply] [d/l] [select]
Re^3: puts vs say by LanX (Saint) on Feb 13, 2021 at 01:12 UTC
> Using the 18 keystrokes in `use feature 'say';` somewhat negates the saving really... `c:\>perl -e"use 5.10.0; say 'works'" works` [download] Specifying a minimal version activates many "newer" features, not only `say` see https://perldoc.perl.org/feature#IMPLICIT-LOADING for more. Cheers Rolf _{(addicted to the Perl Programming Language :) Wikisyntax for the Monastery}	[reply] [d/l] [select]
Re^3: puts vs say by Your Mother (Archbishop) on Feb 13, 2021 at 07:51 UTC
You never have to type boilerplate if you use a template for new scripts. Command line is even better– `perl -E 'say "What you will."'` [download]	[reply] [d/l]
Re^4: puts vs say by LanX (Saint) on Feb 13, 2021 at 14:50 UTC
Re: puts vs say by Anonymous Monk on Feb 28, 2009 at 12:06 UTC
Because its called say not puts	[reply]

Back to Seekers of Perl Wisdom