Re^4: Perl for big projects

[Herkum]

I was prepared to argue this point my point, but by the time I got to the end what this really came down to was tools. Perl does not have a lot of good tools (IDE's if you will) to do the work for you.

I have used several code management tools for Java, and VB and .NET. The common theme is that you cannot write your programs WITHOUT the tools! It is a crutch that these programmers rely on because they cannot program without one.

Think about it, can you really quickly and effectively write or VB or .NET code without using Visual Studio? How about writing a Java program without Eclipse or some other Java IDE? The IDEs hide so many complications from the programmer, they would not even know what to do without one! The language is designed to keep the programmer from thinking, being creative and you pervert this into good coding conventions( or GW Bush thinking, to protect our freedoms we have to give them up).

A Perl programmer can write a program with Notepad, VIM or EMACS or an IDE like Komodo, you are not crippled as a programmer without an IDE. Perl does hide somethings from you, but it does not take it away, which is what you seem to advocating.

[runrig]

Help! My brain is melting...!

[iguanodon]

Think about it, can you really quickly and effectively write or VB or .NET code without using Visual Studio? How about writing a Java program without Eclipse or some other Java IDE?

I can't speak to .NET but I've written plenty of Java and a little VB without any tool but a text editor. But then I worked in a *nix/Perl environment before I ever touched Java or VB so I didn't need the crutch - didn't like it actually.

[Anonymous Monk]

I have used several code management tools for Java, and VB and .NET. The common theme is that you cannot write your programs WITHOUT the tools!

I've written Java without any tools other than vi. An IDE would have made life easier, perhaps; that's the point of an IDE. I wish there were a decent IDE for Perl, but there isn't.

The language is designed to keep the programmer from thinking, being creative and you pervert this into good coding conventions( or GW Bush thinking, to protect our freedoms we have to give them up).

The point of programming isn't to "think creatively", or to excercise "linguistic freedoms". If you want those things, join a poetry group instead!

Programming isn't about creativity; programming is the art of documentation, reduced to terms so simple a machine can understand them.

If you have to be creative, or to "think", then you're not ready to program yet: you're still back at the design phase. First you need to develop the algorithm, then you need to prove it works, and then, once you actually know what you're doing, and how you will do it, you can code it.

But remember, the design and proof of new algorithms is already being done by the CS department at major universities, by people who are probably smarter than you will ever be, and what you're out to prove has probably already been done. There's not a lot of room for creativity; because "novel" is the opposite of "tried and true".

Code is supposed to be boring, and obvious. It's supposed to be obvious what code does; like a well written piece of tech writing, good code doesn't look hard to write -- the point of each line is obvious, and they fit together in a clear and cohesive manner to explain a concept in a clear and unambigous way.

It's not supposed to be fun, or challenging, or interesting. Programs are supposed to: (a)get the job done, and (b)to be understandable and maintainable (ie. as simple as possible)

That's it. That's all. No fuss. No drama. No chest-puffing, or whining about "power", or "freedom", or "creative expression", or other unrelated concepts: just code that works, and is correct and obvious.

[spiritway]

The point of programming isn't to "think creatively", or to excercise "linguistic freedoms". If you want those things, join a poetry group instead!

I found this statement surprising and disturbing. I disagree. Note, however, that I am a rank amateur, not a professional. Reality might well be different for a professional programmer. YMMV

It seems to me that programming has many language metaphors because writing a program is very much like creative writing. You have a certain "thing" you need to say. It should be said effectively, efficiently, and - if possible - eloquently.

First and most important, it must be effective. There is no use writing an efficient program if it doesn't do what you want it. As you stated it, it must get the job done.

Next, it should be efficient. Here you have a less definite goal, because "efficient" can have different measures. Sometimes it's important to make things happen as quickly as possible, in real time - and this could result in highly optimized code that is almost illegible to humans. OTOH, you might value programmer time (both developers and maintainers), and opt for a slower program that is easier to write and maintain. It might even include making it efficient for the user to use. These three goals often are in direct conflict with one another.

Finally, and this is probably a luxury only amateurs could afford, is "eloquence" - the vaguest of the three terms. To me, the one-liners that people often write, that do things for which I wrote a whole script - that's eloquence.

Even omitting eloquence, it still requires creativity to write effective and efficient code. There are decisions to be made, conflicting goals to resolve, unanticitated obstacles to be overcome, all making programming something a bit more than writing obituaries. This requires creativity, IMNSHO. It's not "artistry", not writing obscure code, but it's creatively seeking the optimum solution for the given problem set, within the allowed time.

Finally, though clarity and usefulness shouldn't be sacrificed, there is nothing wrong with enjoying your work. Cranking out line after line of dull, uninspired code may be what bosses are looking for, but that's likely to drive away the most creative people. You'll get your code, but probably no more than that. For many purposes, that's all you need - but that's not where innovation comes from.

I think that some excitement is needed, some fun, "power", "freedom", all that kind of good stuff. Creativity and playfulness seem to be where new ideas are nurtured and developed. You probably don't need new ideas when writing a payroll program... but certainly programming and programs have not yet reached such a state of perfection that we can say, "everything is finished, no need for new ideas".

Oh, and BTW - Perl Monks *is* something like a poetry group. Often a solution is offered here that is both effective and efficient, and occasionally even beautiful - eloquent, as I say. For the working programmer who just wants a solution, there are solutions. For those who want the extra icing on the cake, freedom and creativity and such - well, they can find that here, too.

[runrig]

Programs are supposed to: (a)get the job done ...

Well, now you've taken all the fun out of it. :-P