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Rampant Frontpaging

by lemming (Priest)
on Sep 26, 2001 at 11:30 UTC ( #114756=monkdiscuss: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??

It seems that nodes are being front paged lately as if some monks haven't read Friar or How to use the moderation system. Either that or serious XP whoring is going on.

This has come up before (see previous discussion nodes), but we seem to have a lot more friars+ now, so we have more eyes for the approval process.

My proposal is to either make it a part of Nodes to Consider or as a seperate section. The criteria for showing it on the frontpage could be:

  • Approval first.
  • Can't FP your own. If it's good for the FP, it will get there
  • Five votes to FP
  • Positive rep (greater than 2? Function of NORM?)
  • No edit votes.
  • If it hangs out in NTC for a week, drop it from consideration.
  • Previous discussions that should be read:

  • Changeing a Frontpage Node
  • Frontpage/UI Improvements?
  • frontpage nodes
  • Responsibilities re Unapproved Posts
  • Approval Nodelet for Own Nodes?
  • Comment on Rampant Frontpaging
    Re: Rampant Frontpaging
    by Albannach (Prior) on Sep 26, 2001 at 17:21 UTC
      While these are all good suggestions, why not make frontpaging available at a higher level than 6? To me the frontpaging tool is not in the same category as approval, consideration and selecting an appropriate section. It should require somewhat more experience at the Monastery to be able to decide what symbols of our activities appear hanging on the front gate. Frankly I think that in my just over a year here I've just once seen a node that I felt should be on the frontpage and hadn't already been put there, so there is certainly no shortage of monks carrying out this function.

      Besides, we should also consider extending this list given the population boom ;-)

      Update: Another thought - since there is not much point in putting something on the front page if it will soon be pushed out of sight by a dozen more, it would be interesting to have the frontpage changed weekly, to be re-populated by the highest rep. nodes that have also been marked for FP by some threshold number of monks of appropriate level. It might also be wise to set a minimum rep. (in case of slow weeks) of something like 5*$NORM, so if there are not enough new nodes that are good enough, some old ones stay up a second week.

      Update 2: Re: suaveant's comment, I do think FP should be a separate vote, though I agree (as above) that some significant rep. threshold should also be used. I don't see the front page as a place to reward good nodes in general, but rather a place to feature particularly interesting nodes of significance, especially as I'm seeing some serious node rep. inflation that often in no way reflects a node's greater significance to the understanding of Perl, but just general agreement or popularity. That's fine, but it doesn't make it front page material to me.

      Update 3: ... and while we're at it, it might be a good idea to prevent frontpaging for reaped nodes (first noted by mpolo in Re: Re: When to frontpage a node?).

      --
      I'd like to be able to assign to an luser

        I don't know... moving it up higher would be something, but even then I'd like to see it require either a couple of votes to FP it, or not get the option to FP it until it has reached something like $NORM rep... something. For that matter I'm not sure it should even be a separate vote, it could probably just be based on the rep of the main node... certainly something needs to be done, the front page has had some pretty poor questions up there lately.

                        - Ant
                        - Some of my best work - Fish Dinner

    (ebm) Re: Rampant Frontpaging
    by earthboundmisfit (Chaplain) on Sep 26, 2001 at 20:39 UTC
      Well, first I agree that more than one friar+ ought to vote for FP before it's granted. But I'm not sure I agree that only high levels monks should have the ability to FP nodes.

      Personally, I feel FP status should be granted to those nodes that best represent what this community is about. If this community is really about helping people understand Perl better (and not just a place to show off your programming prowess) then even lame questions belong on the front page if the answers are exceptional or help flesh out previous exceptional answers and discussions.

      There's a relativity in what any one individual might call instructive material. What aids in your understanding might only confuse the beginner. What aids the beginner might only incite your derision. Having more than one vote for FP would assist in balancing the two extremes. I feel strongly that we need to have both sides represented in the process of deciding what goes on our front doorstep, Saints and lesser creatures alike.

      Honestly, I've used the FP vote a lot since making friar. Two of the questions out there today are my doing. I FPed them because I learned something I did not previously know or understand fully about Perl. I have no idea if I represent the 'normal' PM user, but I'm going to continue calling them as I see them and would welcome a change to a multi-cast, consensus building FP voting system.

      update: I just realized I did not reply in the right spot. Above is in response to Albannach's reply

    Re: Rampant Frontpaging
    by dws (Chancellor) on Sep 26, 2001 at 21:03 UTC
      • Five votes to FP
      • Positive rep (greater than 2? Function of NORM?)
      I like this in general, though every so often there is a post with a negative rep that deserves to be frontpaged, either to foster discussion of an unpopular viewpoint, or to serve as a warning to others.

      We lose something here if we adopt a rule that prevents either of these.

      If we do go this direction, I recommend an escape clause that allows higher-ranked monks to frontpage nodes with negative reps.

    Re: Rampant Frontpaging
    by dthacker (Deacon) on Sep 27, 2001 at 02:26 UTC
      dthacker tugs on the robes of his elders

      IMHO, the standards of the monastery are better promoted by a consensus of members, rather than a few senior members. I like lemmings proposal, because it builds consensus instead of concentrating power. Even us mere monks have noted a slight deterioration of the FP. I'd like to see the positive rep > $NORM, and the five votes to FP. With so many senior monks working out of newest nodes, the cream is sure to rise to the top (or in this case, the front.)

      Dave

    Re: Rampant Frontpaging
    by John M. Dlugosz (Monsignor) on Sep 27, 2001 at 07:44 UTC
      Who reads the frontpage? People who just want "the headlines" and don't read or skim all new top-level posts.

      I don't like an idea that puts "old" nodes on the FP, because by then the discussion is over, or it won't attract some people to the discussion.

      I agree with other comments that FP is not related to "best rep".

      I think an easy solution that prevents the self-FP-whore issue and prevents someone from flooding FP, is to make more than one FP vote required for it to take effect. Perhaps 2 people have to say FP-it.

      Note also that I've seen periods where no new material was being added to the FP, and it was getting dull.

      —John

    Re: Rampant Frontpaging
    by grinder (Bishop) on Sep 27, 2001 at 13:09 UTC

      Another criterion for FPed nodes is that they should already have a certain number of offspring nodes (replies and replies to replies and so forth). That is, there should already be a good discussion going. Especially when there's a good argument of for and against and both sides have their pros and cons.

      <update reply="dws"> vroom posting a new feature is the exception to the rule. New features deserve everybody's attention, and should ideally be the first category that appears on the front-page (of those logged in, anonymonks don't care). Anyway it's his toy and he has the root account. If vroom wants to FP something, we're not going to stand in his way. Oh and peoples, don't vote up vroom's posts on new features, he doesn't need the XP. If you think he did something cool, you know the drill.</update>

      <update reply="dws" n="2">I see vroom's messages about new functionality very simply. They start with the word "new" and are posted to the PM Discussions area. And most of them are just minor tweaks to the system, nothing earth shattering, they just don't matter to most people, so why FP them? (again, vroom can FP them himself as he sees fit, but people shouldn't rush to FP a node simply because it was written by vroom). He's not the messiah, he's just a very naughty boy™.

      Talks and PM meetings do not meet the FP criteria either, as the are not of planetary importance. When The Damian speaks in Berlin, it's good to know, but if you're really interested you're better off getting the details straight from the horse's mouth.

      Short lead-time announcements should theoretically be posted to the News area. That that is hopelessly disfunctional at the moment is another matter for debate :).</update>

      Then again, even though I raised this issue a while ago in Points system for frontpaging nodes (that lemming missed :), these days it doesn't bother me as much, as I use a custom front end to view the newest nodes, that threads the nodes with their responses, and I tend to visit all threads (unless they have a content-free title (beware!)). It also makes it easy to see those old nodes that get revisited.

      From time to time and old (but interesting) thread is revisited and a flurry of replies appear. It would be useful to be able to bring that to the front, especially during a slow-news day.

      I was quite surprised at the amount of votes showered on Is readdir ever deterministic?. I thought it was a good question, but when I saw the XP being racked up I was puzzled at first and then concluded that the node had been front-paged. (Then again, as I didn't look, maybe it wasn't and people just thought it was brilliant, I dunno). It's almost as if one needs a checkbox that says "Don't bother front-paging this".

      Re: the argument of tying FP to rep, I don't think that front paging a node should be contingent on its rep, because we all agree that rep is only approximately related to a post's actual merits.

      --
      g r i n d e r
        Another criterion for FPed nodes is that they should already have a certain number of offspring nodes

        A counter-example from earlier today: vroom posts to announce a new feature. Such posts are unlikely to garner many offspring nodes, other than the occassional well-deserved "you rock!" Should these be held off of the front page?

        <update reply="grinder"> This is but one counter-example of many. Short lead-time announcement of things of interest (talks, PM meetings) are another class that often deserved to be front-paged immediately.

        By the time you sort through the exceptions-to-the-rule, having a rule embedded in a mechanism (as opposed to in the culture) is very difficult. </update>

    Re: Rampant Frontpaging
    by Nitsuj (Hermit) on Sep 28, 2001 at 23:43 UTC
      Personally, I like to see a lot of stuff hit the front page. I would rather see the front page see a lot of activity and new nodes than become stagnant. I think that anything that's been on the front page for 24-48 hours should be moved off and that new nodes should come in and replace it, and that it should be difficult to get the same post onto the front page twice.

      The front page should be dynamic and interesting, not necessarily the best of the best nodes, but anything that's worth looking at that's different.

      While the argument that people who aren't really active on the site won't see much other than the front page is relevant. I think that it's also relevant to say that nobody would buy the New York Times if the front page was always the same, and that new users would see the site as stangnant and disinteresting if they came and never saw anything new.

      Just Another Perl Backpacker

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