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X-treme P-ondering

by ybiC (Prior)
on Nov 13, 2000 at 08:20 UTC ( #41258=monkdiscuss: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??

From perusing jcwren's way-cool Perl Monks Stats, I've noticed that I can gain as much XP from voting in a day as rep of some daily best nodes.   This got me to thinking (yeah, I know - Danger, Will Robinson ;^)

I submit that it might benefit PM if the odds of gaining XP for voting decreased when a monk hit,say, Abbot(7) or Bishop(8).   Basically a logical extension to Monk(5) and higher not having the vote-out bonus.   My thought is that it would let me continue to apply my votes, but without feeling like I'm taking advantage of the system.   Of course, Perl guru monks could still easily reach higher levels from XP gained by their excellent posts.

Far-from-complete list of potential issues:

  • could it be done easily within PM code?
  • fairness to affected PMers? (existing Abotts, Bishops, Pontifs who aspire to Sainthood)
  • too soon after vote-out-bonus change of August?
  • mobs of angry, torch-wielding villagers?
  • other ramifications?
  • alternate remedies?

I'm not completely sold on the idea myself.   What do y'all think - is it a dumb idea, or might it have merit for vroom's consideration?
    cheers,
    Don
    striving for Perl Adept
    it's pronounced "why-bick"

Comment on X-treme P-ondering
RE: X-treme P-ondering
by Fastolfe (Vicar) on Nov 13, 2000 at 10:08 UTC
    XP gained from casting votes really isn't all that significant.. Some of the more productive senior monks can easily make 50-75 XP or more on a good day on posts alone. An extra 10 XP is really insignificant (and that's assuming they even take the time to cast all of their votes--I don't; do you have any idea how long it takes to cast 40 votes?).
RE: X-treme P-ondering
by Blue (Hermit) on Nov 13, 2000 at 20:37 UTC
    Looking at Voting/Experience System, it seems that there are two parts to XP gains from votes - 25% per vote, and 1/6 of total votes if all votes given in a day, but only up to level 5 (Monk).

    Saints get 40 votes, the most of anyone. At a 25% for 1 XP, that means that on average, a saint who finds 40 things to vote on in a day will gain about 10 XP. Which is not significant compared to the amount of XP needed.

    Even a monk with 20 votes will, on average, gain 5 XP, needing 300 to travers the level, meaning that if you vote all of your votes Monday thru Friday and both days of the weekends you can go up a level in about 3 months. Assuming you find 20 worthwhile (good or bad) posts everyday.

    This does not seem to be a big deal. At the worst it means that you are reading every post and contributing to PM via evaluating nodes instead of a more direct addition of posts, but that's not a major sin.

    =Blue
    ...you might be eaten by a grue...

      Yes, and that 5XP a day from voting looks even smaller when you consider that the same person is also getting a free 2XP every day just for logging in.

      On a related metter, a couple of days ago I got to wondering how big the voting bonus really was. An Acolyte gets 8 votes per day, so it's easy to see that the Acolyte can expect to acquire an extra 2 XP from casting votes. (Not counting an additional bonus of 2 XP for using them all up.) But the 2XP is really a 25% chance of 1 XP for each vote, so the Acolyte might be lucky and get more XP, or unlucky and get none at all.

      my $n = shift || 8; my $p = shift || .25; for ($i=0; $i<=$n; ++$i) { my $prob = choose($n,$i) * ($p**$i) * ((1-$p)**($n-$i)); $x += $i * $prob; $tp += $prob; printf "%2d %.4f\t(%.4f)\n", $i, $prob, 1-$tp; } print "Expected: $x\n"; sub choose { my ($n, $r) = @_; return 0 if $n < 0 || $r < 0 || $r > $n; return 1 if $r == 0 || $r == $n; return choose($n-1,$r-1) * $n / $r; }
      (THe program will run When you run this, you can give it an argument which is the number of votes you get per day; it defaults to 8. Then it prints out a table showing the probability of getting each possible number of XP:

      0 0.1001 (0.8999) 1 0.2670 (0.6329) 2 0.3115 (0.3215) 3 0.2076 (0.1138) 4 0.0865 (0.0273) 5 0.0231 (0.0042) 6 0.0038 (0.0004) 7 0.0004 (0.0000) 8 0.0000 (0.0000) Expected: 2
      The '3' line here says that there is a 20.76% chance of receiving exactly 3 XP, and a 11.38% chance of receiving more than 3 XP. The '0' line says there's a 10.01% chance of receving nothing at all.

      The chances fall off pretty quickly as the number of points increase, but still about one Acolyte in 11 can expect to get 4 XP from casting votes instead of only 2 XP on a given day.

        All very true, but perhaps not as significant as it seems. While any given day you may get up to 1 XP per vote while others you get 0, in order to get enough votes to go up a level, you need more then one days worth of voting. As such, over a large number of votes, it will most likely average about 1/4 XP per vote. Because of the randomness factor there will always be local variation and noise, but over a large number of votes, it will average out.

        BTW, nice program, and thanks for bringing Perl into our discussion.

        =Blue
        ...you might be eaten by a grue...

RE: X-treme P-ondering
by mirod (Canon) on Nov 13, 2000 at 20:43 UTC

    I would concurr with Fastolfe and Blue, keep the bonus, as it has the added advantage of not encouraging XP whoring by monks who get close to the next level to gain the last XPs they need.

RE: X-treme P-ondering
by clemburg (Curate) on Nov 13, 2000 at 23:40 UTC

    One thing I noticed is that the place where the node happens to be posted has a very big influence on the number of XP points it gets, probably mediated by the number of people who look at the given node. Or, more pointedly, the visibility of a node has sometimes a higher influence on its final XP points than its content.

    E.g., nodes far down in the thread hierarchy tend to get less votes, which is unfortunate since they sometimes contain summaries of the thread. OTOH, nodes posted on the Monastery Gates tend to get more votes, probably since they are much more visible.

    Also, the chances of a node gaining or losing XP points decrease sharply one or two days after it has been posted (since nobody will look at it anymore - probably because everyone navigates by the "Newest Node" page).

    Altogether, this unfortunately means that it is of higher value (at least in terms of XP points) to engage in a lively, but maybe not quite so clueful discussion, than to write a review or answer a categorized question, which probably have a much higher long-lasting value. Maybe one should counteract this tendency by giving more points to nodes in summary/overview areas.

    All this said, I understand that regulating the XP system is a big problem anyway - it is a complicated social process that is being measured here, and there is little chance in "getting it right" anyway.

    Christian Lemburg
    Brainbench MVP for Perl
    http://www.brainbench.com

      > (since nobody will look at it anymore - probably because everyone navigates by the "Newest Node" page).

      Actually, I navigate randomly... <g>

      XP is a feedback system, and it may be fun, and it well in practice "reward" those who post early, but so what?
      XP != Reputation
      I like to be believe that anyone who sticks around here for a while will come to know and respect others by the value that others' posts add, not the number of points that have accrued. It's not XP that's going to get you invited to join a project, co-author an article, or get together for a beer with someone when they're in town.

      Besides, anyone who is seriousy in it for the XP can figure out ways to rig the system (like keeping a private collection of identities that can all be used to cast votes). Is it worth the effort to try to stop that?

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