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Friendly home node

by Juerd (Abbot)
on Apr 02, 2002 at 22:41 UTC ( #156153=monkdiscuss: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??

The image upload part of the edit-user-info page contains a warning, stating that the privilege of being able to upload an image will be taken away if abused. I think it's time to do so. Actually, there's text on Alex the Serb's homenode that isn't too friendly as well.

The pbrush.exe-mutated NATO symbol can really hurt some people's feelings, and the anti-America rant isn't quite loving either. Although I'm in favor of freedom of speech, I think we, as a community, should draw a line. If possible, I think there should be a rule that says anti-$anything is disallowed, unless the $anything is technical.
A while ago, I've /msg'ed Alex about the link he had back then. It didn't help. Now, there's not just a link, but the image is uploaded to Perl Monks, and an anti-NATO image is hosted on this very site :(.

This monastery is supposed to be friendly (if I understood correctly), but how many of you think this particular home node is friendly?

U28geW91IGNhbiBhbGwgcm90MTMgY
W5kIHBhY2soKS4gQnV0IGRvIHlvdS
ByZWNvZ25pc2UgQmFzZTY0IHdoZW4
geW91IHNlZSBpdD8gIC0tIEp1ZXJk

Comment on Friendly home node
Re: Friendly home node
by FoxtrotUniform (Prior) on Apr 02, 2002 at 23:08 UTC

    I'm going to respond in two parts.

    On the subject of Alex the Serb's homenode in particular: it's crude. It doesn't especially bother me, but it obviously bothers you, and it probably bothers other people as well. If it were up to me, I'd probably leave it (and more specifically, the image) standing, but I wouldn't be particularly sad to see it go (and given the disclaimer associated with the edit-user-info image upload box, I see no obligation for the Powers That Be to keep it around).

    On the subject of drawing lines and anti-anti rules: no bloody way. That way lies madness and unintended harm, because there's no way to codify a decent (heh) community standard in a couple of rules. At the very most, we might need to extend consideration to homenodes, if people start to complain about arbitrary censorship. Consideration keeps the community at large (especially if a particularly pungent node is roundly discussed in the chatterbox before being considered), and adds a level of accountability; I think those criteria are perfectly reasonable if we start yanking content from home nodes.

    As for limiting anti-foobar sentiments to the case where foobar is technical: what makes technical holy wars any more sensical than non-technical ones? Since when is the vi-vs-emacs flamefest objective, for instance?

    Community-based oversight I can cope with, but if we start imposing black-and-white rules on this monastery's content I will leave and never come back.

    Update: After a fair bit of thought, I upvoted Juerd's node. Dammit, we need this sort of discussion to keep Perl Monks a good community. Self-examination is good. If you don't agree with him, reply instead of downvoting.

    --
    :wq

Re: Friendly home node
by shotgunefx (Parson) on Apr 02, 2002 at 23:49 UTC
    Honestly, I found his homenode irksome. But then I thought, "idiot" and moved on.

    I don't think we should start policing homenodes. The homenode is a place for monks to express themselves. If he hates NATO, I could care less. He hates America too. I myself, love America, but that's my opinion. This is the one place appropriate on the site to express this.

    If it is really, really, bad like "All (race here) are inferior and/or should he wiped out ,etc" or really bad pictures <img alt="My wife and donkey!">. Then enough will complain to the gods and they will deal with it. I myself have yet to find a node offensive enough for me to do that. (Maybe I haven't looked hard enough though.)

    Slandering other monks should be a no-no too.

    -Lee

    "To be civilized is to deny one's nature."
Re: Friendly home node
by belg4mit (Prior) on Apr 02, 2002 at 23:56 UTC
    I have no answers but I agree with FoxtrotUniform this is a mighty slippery slope. How many JavascriptMonks would like to see AgentM's node disinfected? I don't especially care for the image, and I could see it falling under the abuse clause (though I can think of other things that would be more clearly so). The text is juvenile. It's one think to have an opinion, it's another thing to spout slander/propaganda/conspiracy without evidence. However, frankly it just confirms my opinion of the monk in question. And if that is the image he wishes to portray, so be it.

    --
    perl -pe "s/\b;([st])/'\1/mg"

(ar0n) Re: Friendly home node
by ar0n (Priest) on Apr 03, 2002 at 00:07 UTC
    If possible, I think there should be a rule that says anti-$anything is disallowed, unless the $anything is technical.

    I have a deep-rooted hatred for cute, cuddly kittens. I'm not too fond of little ducklings, either. Am I banned, now?

    This monastery is supposed to be friendly (if I understood correctly), but how many of you think this particular home node is friendly?

    The monastery is supposed to be friendly, and if a user gets out of line in his interactions with other monks, there are provisions in place for that. What people put on their homenode, however, is pretty much up to them. The monastery neither approves, nor disapproves of its content (not withstanding any breaches of security or copyright law). If you don't like the homenode, don't go there. It's that easy.

Re: Friendly home node
by derby (Abbot) on Apr 03, 2002 at 00:25 UTC
    Well as one who supports NATO and supports America, I say leave Alex the Serb's home node alone. He's entitled to his opinions and I pity him if he bases his views on America and Americans on American television (and I'm sure what's exported is way worse then the drek they normally show).

    Alex, please base your views on what most Europeans do - ugly American tourists. Hell when I'm abroad I pretend I'm Canadian so I don't have to be lumped with those polyester wearing, toupee flapping, wigs a wailing, sour puss exports (why can't they just do in Rome what the fricking Romans do).

    Just as long as Alex doesn't blatantly interject his anti-NATO feelings into technical discussions (that is in a non-sequiter non sequitur way), I'm fine with his stance and his home node.

    -derby

Re: Friendly home node
by dvergin (Monsignor) on Apr 03, 2002 at 05:01 UTC
    This issue has been raised in Editor Requests also. In response to the request posted there, I have /msg'ed Alex the Serb in a friendly way to see if he would be willing to voluntarily change his homenode picture to something else.

    Let's give this a little time to see if it works itself out.

    dvergin

Re: Friendly home node
by Biker (Priest) on Apr 03, 2002 at 07:39 UTC

    I'm against banning home nodes based on node contents. For instance, I'm not christian. I'm Pagan. Is this a reason for banning me and/or my home node from the Monastery? I sincerely hope not.

    What would be the next step? Excluding TheDevil from the Monastery because of a somewhat unexpected choice of user name? That would lead us down a road I won't follow.


    Everything went worng, just as foreseen.

      What would be the next step? Excluding TheDevil from the Monastery because of a somewhat unexpected choice of user name?

      Good point. But I think directly offending people is too much. Pro-$something doesn't always mean anti-$opposite. I think a user should not have a swastika-like NATO symbol, and I think that directly offending should not be allowed. I'm not saying Alex the Serb has to be pro-America, or has to love NATO.

      U28geW91IGNhbiBhbGwgcm90MTMgY
      W5kIHBhY2soKS4gQnV0IGRvIHlvdS
      ByZWNvZ25pc2UgQmFzZTY0IHdoZW4
      geW91IHNlZSBpdD8gIC0tIEp1ZXJk
      

        As FoxtrotUniform pointed out, this discussion is definitively healthy for the Monastery. I would like to add that it's healthy for any community.

        I dislike the image you're referring to, and I dislike the messages on the home node you're referring to as well. But I think that someone that is very comitted to Christianity may be offended by other statements on this site. I understand your point of view to "draw the line" somewhere. The problem is just to define, even on a case by case basis, where to draw it.

        Maybe some kind of consideration with voting on home nodes would make sense?


        Everything went worng, just as foreseen.

Re: Friendly home node
by Anonymous Monk on Apr 03, 2002 at 08:39 UTC
    While I don't agree with the sentiment, and god knows I dont, and while I dislike Alex the Serb very much , it's all irrelevant.

    we need a disclaimer

    I wonder if the FBI would flag Alex the Serb as a TERRORIST?

    How would perlmonks be implicated?

    How do we protect our beloved website?

    If there is realistic chance that pm might be *impaired* by some guys homenode, I say censor that sh**, or at least slapp a fu***ng disclaimer on it.

      we need a disclaimer

      Agreed

      I wonder if the FBI would flag Alex the Serb as a TERRORIST?

      Completely irrelevant.

      How would perlmonks be implicated?

      I have no idea whether hosting content like this is legal or not. I think it it is not.

      How do we protect our beloved website?

      Well, most people seem to find freedom of speech more important than friendlyness. I can live with that, but did want to know how others felt about it. Considering the replies in this thread, I think homenodes like this should not be censored.

      If there is realistic chance that pm might be *impaired* by some guys homenode, I say censor that sh**,

      If there is, but is there?

      U28geW91IGNhbiBhbGwgcm90MTMgY
      W5kIHBhY2soKS4gQnV0IGRvIHlvdS
      ByZWNvZ25pc2UgQmFzZTY0IHdoZW4
      geW91IHNlZSBpdD8gIC0tIEp1ZXJk
      

        I have no idea whether hosting content like this is legal or not. I think it it is not.

        Sorry, come again?

        I have severe doubts that hosting a mutilated NATO logo and an anti-America rant is illegal. Granted, America seems to have been exchanging some freedom for the "protection of freedom" recently, but that's just ludicrous. America doesn't own the internet. You can go all over the place and find things like this.


        --
        amoe
Re: Friendly home node
by smgfc (Monk) on Apr 03, 2002 at 09:52 UTC

    I can not tell you how disturbing Juerd's post is to me, and how much the post by an anonymous monk concerning PerlMonks integrity in the face FBI investigation linking Alex the Serb with terrorism scares me.

    I had to downvote Juerd because while PerlMonks is a perl/techincally oriented site, a user's homenode is his little "home", his area to express his beliefs/views/opinions. If Alex associates NATO's policies with the Nazi regime, then we need to accept that fact, and hopefully try to understand where he is coming from.

    I have to strongly disagree with Juerd, concerning the policy of "no anti-anything". What about rants concerning the extreme incompetence of management ala' Dilbert? No Dilbert because some manager might get his feelings hurt? And what if you decided to put an American Flag on your homenode? Well, alot of people see America as the enemy, and in many cases America is the enemy. Should your flag be removed? I realize the second example is less inflamitory because you are promoting one thing, not attacking another, but I am sure you would have a problem with someone flying the Nazi flag over their homenode.

    A keyword throughout this discussion has been "community", and I fail to see how removing/censoring Alex the Serb's homenode will enhance the community at large. I personally feel that the more ideas that are expressed within a community, the more close knit and functional the community can be come, allowing for X number of close minded people.

    My concerns regarding the integrity of PerlMonks are almost outside the scope of this discussion, but ... Let me preface this by saying I love the PerlMonks community and thinks it add infintissimle wealth to the the Perl community at large. These concerns go back to the censoring of some node involving DeCSS, which was entirely legal because the tables needed to decrypt the CSS were not involved, but that is OT. I firmly believe that this community is worthwhile because it is based on many different "things", the paramount of these "things" is the right to say anything to the point of absurdity. I believe with out this right, the community cannot exists, so to sacrafice it (censoring homenodes for example) to save the PerlMonks community (from the DMCA or the FBI) would also sacrafice the community.

    In conclusion, I think a users homenode should be free from the restrictions of good taste, integrity, or technical validity.

Re: Friendly home node
by demerphq (Chancellor) on Apr 03, 2002 at 12:50 UTC
    Juerd while I can see your angle, and while I agree that Alex The Serbs homepage is distateful I wold have to say that censorship is not the way to go. Now there are many Monastery related reasons for this listed in the many excellent replies to your node, but my justification has nothing to do with them. My justification is from the symbols and the principles that those symbols stand for (or ideally should stand for, I can see how some people might question those principles, although generally would disagree with them.) Now to Alex The Serb these symbols may have a different meaning than they do to me but I think most westerners would (generally) agree with the following
    Nato
    The hundreds of thousands of people, from all over the world, who died (often in countries they had never heard of let alone had any personal allegance to) in World War II, defending unversal concepts such as freedom, justice, and equality. Personally I include freedom of speech, and the right to protest. (Yes this does imply that I believe Nato is merely an exension of the "Allies" of WWII)
    US
    At one time the united states was the symbol of people overcoming harsh and remote government and replacing it with governemnt of the people by the people. (I say one time because it is debateable as to whether or not these anti-imperialist credentials are still valid.)

    Since the very symbols that Alex The Serb has chosen to denigrate are at least in part about freedom of speech then I can't see how we could justify such an action.

    Furthermore, I wonder if this debate in of itself teaches Alex The Serb a little bit about real western morals and culture. I wonder if he has reflected whether in former regimes equivelent anti-serb or anti-yugoslavian symbols would have been tolerated, and I wonder if this entire situation had been reversed how many people like Alex The Serb would have spoken up in defence of the individuals right to ridicule whomever and whatever they choose.

    Lastly, ive often thought the best way to respond to hate is through ridicule not repression. Hate is a very serious matter and hateful people are usually better undermined by honest laughter than any form of repression.

    So my last words would be :hahahahahahah

    Yves / DeMerphq
    ---
    Writing a good benchmark isnt as easy as it might look.

      Hate is a very serious matter and hateful people are usually better undermined by honest laughter than any form of repression.

      Or better yet, attempting to view the issue from his perspective while intelligently discussing the subject and acknowledging that he is entitled to his opinion :-).

Re: Friendly home node
by simon.proctor (Vicar) on Apr 03, 2002 at 13:26 UTC
    I say to leave it be. This is naturally a touchy subject and is frought with mine fields, the arguments for which have been place here more eloquently than I could.

    My personal opinion is that a personal node should not be pornographic, targetted at a real life individual, involve children or incite religious, social or ethnic hatred. On a different note I don't like swearing on community sites unless its in context (but thats just a personal thing).

    Obviously thats not a complete list but such a list would be filled with many exceptions. The only way around that (that I can see) is to examine these on a case by case basis. This way means that if someone finds something offensive, they can post a comment to this site/editors/whatever and the relevant parties involved can make a decision.

    But then you've got to find someone with the time to do all of that :)
Re: Friendly home node
by gmax (Abbot) on Apr 03, 2002 at 16:03 UTC
    Personally, I do care. As an individual, my feelings are hurt by that homenode. And I care, even though I am not American, for the same reason I cared and I felt hurt when I saw two planes smashed to NY twin towers, because I am a human being.

    As a member of the open source community, though, I think that freedom of speech must be defended.

    However, another principle that I try to follow is that my rights cease where your rights begin.
    It is my right to drive on the road, but since it is your right to cross the same road, I should not run you over.
    I have the right to express myself. I don't feel that my right implies offending other people for their belonging to one nation, ethnic group, religion, football team, you name it.
    I feel, instead, that I have the right to stay in a public place without being addressed as "s*head" or similar things.

    By joining perlmonks, I expected to find a technical forum where to express and exchange technical information, without any political, religious, ethnic or national biase.

    I agree that censoring is a bad thing, but I am sure that sticking to a policy is not censoring. And the policy is "Talk about Perl, have fun". I fail to see how "Feel free of offending other people" could be rightfully added to the PerlMonks policy.
    I wonder what would happen if I replaced the picture in my homenode with something really, really out of order, such as an explicit pornographic picture or a scene from an autopsy, and I filled my node of insults directed to specific individuals in this Monastery.
    Don't read me wrong. Doing such a thing would be the last of my intentions, but just for the sake of argument let's assume that I went nuts and I did it.
    What would the community do? What would be the feeling of those dozens of people explicitly insulted in my node? And what about fearing the wrath of the law, if my picture contents were declared contrary to moral and fall under an international investigation?
    (No I did not write that anonymous message about the FBI, but I understand its implications. In some countries, I mean civilized ones, the ISP are responsible if the contents of their sites are against the law, i.e. if they are obscene or diffamatory.)

    Think about it.

    Freedom of speech is OK. But rational people must understand their limits. And respect them.

    And talking about limits, we already have some. If I write a node asking advice on how to make a null modem cable, the NodeReaper will delete it. So what happened to my freedom of speech in this case? Didn't I have the right to ask whatever I wanted? Not really. I should have respected the PM policy.
    And what if I felt rejected, traumatized, biased, discriminated by the NodeReaper censorship? Too bad. It was my fault. I joined the Monastery and I did not play by the rules, so I must face the consequences.
    So censoring null modem cables is OK, while censoring offensive behaviour is a no-no? I am not convinced.

    It's a controversial matter. I don't know what it would be the best action to take. Personally, I don't think that respecting a few rules of civilized cohabitation should be seen as censorship. And I don't think anybody could accuse us of being repressive if we enforced a simple rule of decency.

    At this point, somebody might feel that having the power of removing offensive contents could lead to true discrimination, and the next step would be that somebody's homenode will be cleared because the owner was using recursive regexes instead of module Recurse::Forever.
    My idea in this respect is that I trust the community. If I found that I have joined a group of fanatic anti-recursive-subs or pro-closures-in-modules that will prosecute anything different from their creed, I would simply leave the group, because it was not what I wanted.
    I know what I want. I know what I am now. I am a member of a community of very skilled Perl enthusiasts. The day that they will start excluding me because my scripts are using the wrong tab stop, or because I am listening to disreputable music, then I would look for something different. As it is today, I understand the rules, and I am playing them. If I make a mistake (and I have made a few :) I accept that the NodeReaper comes to bury the fruit of my Perl sins.
    At the same time, I don't have any difficulty accepting to behave in a civilized manner and I don't think I am asking too much if I expect that the other Monks extend the same courtesy to me.

    Back to my opening statement. I don't like that node. So what? You may say. I could just avoid it. Yes. True. But I feel concerned - not to say ashamed - as a member of the PM community towards a visitor who is coming to see the Monastery and stumbles into that node. Would he/she join after such brilliant presentation? What if the visitor is an employer who is reading a CV and sees a reference to PM and decides to have a look? What then? Should that Monk hide being a member of PM, because it could undermine the chances of getting a job? And what if it's your boss?

    I leave my thoughts open. I understand and support the principle of preserving complete freedom, even though I am concerned about what would happen to my desire for peaceful cohabitation.
    _ _ _ _ (_|| | |(_|>< _|
Re: Friendly home node
by strat (Canon) on Apr 03, 2002 at 18:04 UTC
    Hi Juerd,

    although I don't like Alex the Serb's homenode either and think that the monastir is not a good place for politics, I absolutely disagree what you are trying to do.

    He isn't committing a crime with expressing his opinion. It is just a shame that he didn't explain in a better way why he is posting this picture on his nomenode, and why he doesn't like the Nato.

    Do you think the following cuts of postings are ok?

    • Dont buy products from company X because Y (can't remember the node)
    • All other programming languages than perl are s***
    • If you don't see that, you're optimizing for beginners or something, but not for maintenance and reduced defects. That means you are going to cost your employer more money overall, and increase his risk, making you less hireable.

    Perhaps - if you remember - only some years ago, the Nato was leading war against his country. And whoever was right, war in my eyes always is a very, very bad thing...

    Alex, I'd really appreciate if you wrote some lines about your reasons.

    Best regards,
    perl -le "s==*F=e=>y~\*martinF~stronat~=>s~[^\w]~~g=>chop,print"

      only some years ago, the Nato was leading war against his country.
      And at the same time, his country troops were creating eight hundred thousand refugees and killing seven thousands ethnic Albanians. (see related data) .

      He is not the only one with a grudge, (or I could also mention Bosnia) but this is not the right place to nurse it.

      Could we stick to Perl and tell him to either do the same or find a better place for his questionable political claims?

      Now if you think that this node should be reaped, so is the one I was answering. Either we ignore politics, or we give anyone equal opportunities.
        Dear Anonymous Monk,

        you seem to have an account at perlmonks; why do you post as anonymous?

        I don't know if Alex is responsible for the war that started as civil war until Nato thought it had to take party against the Serbs. I don't know enough about the reasons why this civil war started, so I can't tell you who was right. And if I think about the question if there exists a right position in any war, I come to the conclusion: certainly not. (but following this issue becomes too philosophic and too much for my bad english).

        If you want to blame him for the former politics of the country he lives in ("And at the same time, his country troops were creating eight hundred thousand refugees and killing seven thousands ethnic Albanians".) I could as well blame every German and Austrian for Hitler, every Russian for Stalin (who killed about 30 Mio people AFAIK), every American for the Slavery of Millions of Africans and the killing lots of Native Americans or how they are(were?) coping some Afghan prisoners in Cuba, every Britain for the dirty deeds in South Africa, every Israeli for torture being legal for prisoners until about summer two years ago (just to mention some examples). In war, the greatest loser always is the population living in the region of war. And who truely is right in a war normaly is in the viewer's point of view.

        But I agree to you to better sticking to perl and asking him to do the same.

        Comment on changement: thanks to danichka for giving me the words: "Native Americans"

        Best regards,
        perl -le "s==*F=e=>y~\*martinF~stronat~=>s~[^\w]~~g=>chop,print"

        Those ethnic Albanians had been creating refugees for some time before the troops interfered. And created quite a few more after the troops were forced to move out. Quite a few.

        I wonder how are americans going to act when there's enough ethnic mexicans in the southern states to start forcing the remains of white(r) folk out and requesting autonomy. Though I doubt anyone is going to bomb New York then.

Re: Friendly home node
by mattr (Curate) on Apr 07, 2002 at 13:35 UTC
    Well, I don't know who this Alex guy is though I've seen enough of his diatribes. He seems to have posted some answers to this thread on his home-node.

    Personally I find his page hideously offensive in several different ways, and unbecoming of a monk. If this was a Buddhist monastery for example, the head monk would thwack him with a bamboo stick and tell him to sit up straight and focus on Perl. Haven't got up the courage to go to the temple next door at 6 am Sunday and try it myself though.. :)

    The swastika might be illegal for German monks to view.

    It is emotional illness to post many requests for help to people while insulting them as best he can. Poor guy.

    But because of the PM custom of linking to a user's node every time they are mentioned, I think he is taking advantage of PM's architecture to spread hate. A hate-monger, not a perl-monger. How rabid, the anti-monk. I mean he posts a swastika while saying he's against the Nazis, he thanks people while telling horrible American jokes, he just can't calm down.

    His replies (4/7) imply that monks who support the continued existence of his current node are somehow allied with his views. I am not for new policies, but do think it possible to protect freedom without enabling media-hacking by hate-filled individuals. Recently there was a big uproar about relatively benign media-hacking by some of the saint level monks who add characters to their post titles. Too bad nobody took me up on smileys..

    My suggestion is that he be asked to remove most everything on his home node above his reply due to its extremely antagonistic content which is not appropriate to PM. I've read it several times to be fair and am utterly nauseated and am afraid I will stumble over a link to this node and click it by accident. I really don't want to do that, it strikes nerves that shouldn't have to be struck when I'm at PM. At least I don't hit AgentM's page by accident (actually I forget what's there but won't go change my browser to find out).

    I think PM makes it too easy for people to disturb the environment with hate and idiocy. It takes a thick skin, but there are limits as our AMs will tell you.

    The net Hate site was useful to me. They have so much crap listed it makes Alex's work look like script-kiddie droppings. Then there is a link at the bottom to antiracist sites. They say they promote freedom of speech and I suppose it is important to be able to look this shit in the face to work against it. But we've tried talking. Let's work against hatred here, and either get the offensive text off PerlMonks, or add a Javascript alert that tells people it contains information likely offensive to most people. That way new users will know what this guy is thinking when he talks to them online. We can talk more but if he keeps it up I will reply to every question of his I see with a reference to his home node.

Re: Friendly home node
by wmono (Friar) on Apr 10, 2002 at 15:28 UTC

    I'm going to stick my neck out here, and it'll probably be chopped off by a mass of -- votes. So be it. There seems to be enough direction to the general sentiment that I feel the need to express a dissenting opinion.

    I'm not entirely in agreement with everything written or depicted on this node. There are many things on it, in fact, that I strongly disagree with. That said, I'm all for letting it stay, picture and all.

    Not for letting its owner suffer a loss of reputation for his opinions, not for showing how the Monastary can be abused, and not for comparing against others, but for letting the person behind the name speak his mind.

    If the anti-American or anti-NATO nature of the message is what offends you, maybe you need to stop here and ask yourself why that is the case. Would you be less offended if the message were different, perhaps directed against something that you feel is not right? Can you acknowledge that some people disagree with your opinion of America? What would you say if I were to post an anti-Alex the Serb rant on my home node that attacks his views? (And can you see how some of the replies to the parent were exactly this?)

    This post is, of course, my opinion. You're free to disagree with it, just as you are free to disagree with the node in question. I don't think, though, that you have any right to tell me to remove it.

Re: Friendly home node
by BrentDax (Hermit) on Apr 10, 2002 at 18:56 UTC
    "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." --Voltaire (may not be the exact wording)

    =cut
    --Brent Dax
    There is no sig.

Re: Friendly home node
by wohlgek (Acolyte) on Apr 10, 2002 at 20:09 UTC
    Personally, I find Alex the Serb to be ignorant, immature and offensive. The first time I saw his node, I rolled my eyes, and said to myself "What an idiot". I then moved on, promptly forgetting about him until now. His node I think is offensive. The logic that he gives on his home node is faulty, or at least the last time I checked, the act of making a sweeping generalization based on one fact was semantically considered an "arguement from the extreme". However, if it is not, then is it also fair to consider all Serbs to be war mongering racists due to the actions of just a few? No, it is not, nor do I consider them to be such. Yet, based off of this observation he then makes the claim - "They should not even exist!". What is this? Are all Americans doomed to die because of Jerry Springer? I dunno, but to me that seems kinda harsh.

    I did not post this, though, to refute all of Alex's misguided "facts". I am making this post in reply to Juerd's Friendly home node.

    I think gmax has hit the nail on the head. Yes, you do have the right to free speech (depending on what country you live in I guess), but Perlmonks also has the right to moderate what you say. Is this an infringement on free speech? No, of course not! You can go into a movie theatre and start spouting your mouth off, and claim it is your right due to free speech; however, it is the right of the movie theatre to remove you from the premises as well, and they will. It is the same with Perlmonks, it is their website and they can choose to enforce whatever rules they want.

    Perlmonks has a guide to the Monestery:

    What Perl Monks is:

    • Our attempt to make learning Perl as nonintimidating and easy to use as possible.
    • A place for you and others to polish, improve, and showcase your Perl skills.
    • A community which allows everyone to grow and learn from each other.

    Personally, I think that there should be moderation of the home nodes to at least some degree. Yes, your home node is so you can tell people a little about yourself and what you are doing with perl, but Alex the Serb's node goes considerably beyond this.

    I for one, would not be sorry to see it disappear.

    wohlgek

Re: Friendly home node
by digiryde (Pilgrim) on Apr 11, 2002 at 03:54 UTC
    Rant on
    • Freedom of speech is not a guarentee on this board, as this board is about a specific topic. It is not about C++, C, Java, Farming, Ship Building or the physics of flight. It is about Perl. Sometimes in the chat room, we get OT in a big way. Some times others in the chat room shut down the OT in their own way. But, as has been mentioned, NodeReaper normally removes the OT comment from the boards. This board is built, managed, and provided at the pleasure of the Owner of the board. Though he is kind enough to allow so many to contribute in a large way.
    • Offensive material can take many forms. How many wars were born of different religious/political views. Each holding the notion that for the betterment of society (or the soul) their ideas are the best. Most of us have a very difficult time seeing issues from the other side of the box. This individual's view is not much different than the views of many millions if not billions of people in this world. I do not have to agree with their views, but I must accept that it is their views. If we do not accept their views (as their views) then things like Sept 11th in the US become not only much more possible, but much more probable.
    • Most people who write about their viewpoints (esp their feelings) present them in a hurried "childish" unreferenced manner. These are feelings, not facts. Teach 2 months in a grade school or middle school, and you will see what I mean. Unfortunately, most people stop developing their communication skills somewhere in this range.
    • I am a US citizen. I have lived in 7 states and travelled in at least 20 more. I have been in Canada many times. I may not be an expert on the world, but I have experienced enough of the US to know that we are a great mix of people, from the dumbest most insulting people you could ever expect to the most gracious uplifting individuals you could ever expect to share time with.
    • I have been forced to listen to hate mongering in many forms and love nurturing in many others. I fear censorship. The real solutions are good educations and good socioeconomic environments. Why? A good education gives people the ability to think rationally about their's and others' situations. A good socioeconomic environment helps prevent the struggle for survival where death is a very real and certain outcome of not triumphing over other people or situations.
    • About keeping this person's node around? As a community, we are already talking about community standards (keeping or getting rid of either way is a standard). As a community we will voice our opinion and maybe it will be enforced and maybe it will not. I would rather have the chance to read an opinion than not have a chance to read an opion even if I find the opinion ignorant and ranting. At least now I have a chance to understand this individual better even if I like them less.
    Rant off

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