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### Re: Having messed this up enough...

by virtualsue (Vicar)
 on Aug 09, 2001 at 14:25 UTC ( #103364=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

in reply to Having messed this up enough...
in thread (Golf) Let's go bowling

X (NOT PART OF ANY FRAME)

Not true. It's part of the 10th frame. The so-called "extra" or "bonus" ball given for a mark (strike or spare) in the 10th frame is merely a natural consequence of the scoring rules. In any frame, a strike is 10 + next 2 balls, and a spare is 10 + the next ball. All frames are scored the same, so there must be two balls thrown after a strike or one ball after a spare.

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Re (tilly) 2: Having messed this up enough...
by tilly (Archbishop) on Aug 09, 2001 at 16:50 UTC
I think that the terminology is somewhat arbitrary here. But here is my reasoning.

If your game starts with X then X, the second strike is definitely part of the second frame, not the first. It affects the scoring of the first frame, but it is not part of it.

Similarly if you get a strike in the 10'th frame then you need to throw 2 more balls to find your final score. Because you are not going to throw any more frames, you get the chance to throw them right away. But I would like to classify them for scoring purposes as being no more part of the tenth frame than the second strike was part of the first frame. Certainly the scoring would not be any different if the custom was that the extra balls were thrown as part of an 11'th and 12'th (if needed) frames which were not themselves scored.

So in terms of when they are thrown, sure. They are thrown as part of the 10'th frame. But in terms of having a simple consistent mental model of what the scoring means, I find that it makes more sense to think of them as being outside the first 10 frames.

Acutally, in the bowling world, if you throw 3 strikes in the 10th, they are commonly referred to as the 10th, 11th and 12th frames. They aren't actually seperate frames though. On a score sheet, those three balls all fall into the slot designated as the 10th. The actual scoring rules are different than they are being applied here, but it doesn't change the result. There are several ways to look at the tenth frame.

1 - The score for the 10th is the total pinfall.
2 - the score for the 10th is the first "frame" type score (strike, spare or open) and then the bonus ball(s) are used to calculate the score, using the rules for strikes and spares, but the actual pinfall is discarded.

The scoring for the 10th is in fact the same as any other frame. For any other frame, the score for that frame (given a mark), is the total pinfall (which would be 10) plus the next 1 or 2 balls. In the tenth, there are no frames after the 10th, there's no frames to count and therefore the score for the 10th is just the total pinfall. So for understanding purposes, it isn't the same as comparing strikes in the 1st and 2nd frames.

In your example, you said that the strike in the second frame effects the 1st, but is not part of it. In the tenth, it's the other way around, the second strike is part of the frame and therefore can't effect it in the way that the strike in the 2nd effected the 1st.

Not that your methodology (and what I used in my golf) changes the outcome of the scoring.. but I just thought I'd clarify.

Rich

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