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Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation

by ysth (Canon)
on Nov 05, 2003 at 20:12 UTC ( #304849=monkdiscuss: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??

This is not a complaint, but I've got a number of nodes in the -5 to -10 range now, and wondered if that was typical. How low can they get before possibly being removed? Can anyone offer me any advice to avoid being so apparently bothersome to others? I've added a sig in case that helps.
One was created by mistake; what do I do about that (other than never do it again)? Others include all my replies here (two of which I have updated in case I was misunderstood).

If you are downvoting this for other than lack of interest, thanks for sending me a message or reply to let me know why so I can do better (or just stay quiet) next time.

Comment on Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation
Re: Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation
by revdiablo (Prior) on Nov 05, 2003 at 20:30 UTC

    If I am in any position to give out advice (which is questionable in and of itself), I would suggest that you try not to be so 'meta'. The posts of yours which I read seem to focus directly on the site and community. Though that is not necessarily a bad thing, I know I for one tend to be slightly put off by these type of posts, especially in large amount. (Not that I would go so far as to downvote them, but I'm sure the line between ignoring a post and downvoting it is not a wide one.)

    So what is my advice? Write about Perl. Ask questions about Perl. Respond to notes about Perl. This is what the site is for, and too much meta-discussion might incur the down-vote wrath of a number of Monks. I have often found that I get the highest increases in XP when I forget about XP completely, and just think about a problem or solution with Perl.

Re: Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation
by jonadab (Parson) on Nov 05, 2003 at 20:31 UTC

    If you're concerned about it, you could do a user search on yourself, sort by reputation, and then compare your higest-rated nodes with your lowest-rated nodes, which might let you pick out a trend of which kinds of nodes get voted up and which don't. It may not just be about content, but also clarity and tone, in some cases, though solid content will tend to salvage poor tone, at least somewhat. I looked through some of your lowest-rated nodes, though, and most of them didn't seem too bad to me. (There was one that was pretty much content-free, something about ignoring a previous node; that sort of thing is best put in an update to the same node, IMO. But that's just one node; nearly all of us have one or two bloopers like that.)

    I wouldn't worry too much about minor negative nodes. The way the voting system works, as best I understand it, it takes more than ten -5 nodes to negate the impact on your XP of a single +50 node. Besides, XP have no materiel value.


    $;=sub{$/};@;=map{my($a,$b)=($_,$;);$;=sub{$a.$b->()}} split//,".rekcah lreP rehtona tsuJ";$\=$ ;->();print$/
Re: Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation
by perrin (Chancellor) on Nov 05, 2003 at 20:31 UTC
    My advice: stop talking about your reputation, stop talking about XP, talk more about Perl. You obviously know some things about Perl, so ask good questions, post good answers, and make a contribution. People will respond favorably.
Re: Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation
by Anonymous Monk on Nov 05, 2003 at 20:32 UTC

    My $0.02 worth of posting guidelines:

    If: you have a response that you feel answers a question better or differently than existing answers, and/or makes an important point, then respond. Else: do not respond. Too many people forget that the Else branch is a perfectly valid branch to take, and instead fudge the truth values of the If condition and post away.

    Oh, and your new sig is nothing but a downvote magnet! Stop worrying.

Re: Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation
by hardburn (Abbot) on Nov 05, 2003 at 20:35 UTC

    You can't delete your own node (you could delete the contents, but this is generally considered an abuse in itself). It is possible for the node to be considered for deletion, though.

    I've had my own nodes downvoted for no reason I could figure out (perhaps somebody wanted to use up their votes and decided the -- button was slightly closer to their mouse pointer's position), but its usually only one or two points. -5 to -10 indicates a serious problem. I would like it, though, if people would at least message me or reply when they downvote me.

    ----
    I wanted to explore how Perl's closures can be manipulated, and ended up creating an object system by accident.
    -- Schemer

    : () { :|:& };:

    Note: All code is untested, unless otherwise stated

      I've had my own nodes downvoted for no reason I could figure out ...
      I've caught myself at least three times doing this in IE: click on '++', use down arrow, wonder why screen isn't moving, notice that '--' is now chosen because the radio group was last selected and down arrow moved the check to the 'next' in the group.   I wonder how many times I've _not_ caught myself?   If people don't know they're doing it, don't wait for any explanations...
Re: Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation
by pg (Canon) on Nov 05, 2003 at 21:37 UTC

    First of all, people only down vote against your post, not you personally, so your title is not precise ;-)

    I do have one suggestion. If you can spend more time asking questions and answering questions, instead of writing all those discussions, probably you can contribute more to the community. You still can post some discussions once a while…BTW, we all know your intention is good, but too many of them can make people feel a little bit tired.

Re: Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation
by castaway (Parson) on Nov 05, 2003 at 22:04 UTC
    Here's another tip: Those questions in that node you mentioned can a) probably be found in the sites FAQs somewhere, of which there are a good many, and/or figured out on your own, or, asked/answered quickly in the Chatterbox. (Which, if you haven't noticed it yet, is quite a useful tool for short questions, especially ones about the site itself..)

    I'd guess this is what motivates people to downvote, that you're asking things which seem pretty obvious/apparent to them. (Every new user is of course, entitled to be clueless, we all were once, but some people don't seem to remember that ,)

    If you need something deleted, also ask in the Chatterbox, there's usually someone around who can mark it to be deleted at your request, and it'll disappear..

    Oh, and that .sig is probably asking for trouble.. Watch, observe, and so on, don't worry too much about rep, you'll get the hang of it..

    C.

      Thanks to everyone who responded. My goal is not to play the XP game, but to know how to best contribute. The consensus seems to be "shut up and let us all get on with helping each other," so I will. (You'll have to endure my sig until I have a better feel for things, though.)

      If you are downvoting this for other than lack of interest, thanks for sending me a message or reply to let me know why so I can do better (or just stay quiet) next time.

        You're catching on. Observe, learn and contribute where you can.

        rdfield

      I'd guess this is what motivates people to downvote, that you're asking things which seem pretty obvious/apparent to them. (Every new user is of course, entitled to be clueless, we all were once, but some people don't seem to remember that ,)
      ysth has reached the rank of monk, has over 50 nodes to his credit ... if people are downvoting him for asking questions answered in the FAQ, you have to wonder why he still doesn't turn to the FAQ first before asking ?

      PS - i don't know if he asked questions like that, but if that's the case, that's something to consider

Re: Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation
by Anonymous Monk on Nov 05, 2003 at 22:39 UTC

    An observation: this is the first node of yours I've read that holds even a hint of an admission that you aren't perfect and have come here for self-improvement.

    Good. That's what this site is for and that's why most monks are here. To find help, to offer help, and to help ourselves by helping others.

    We aren't here to stroke your ego when you show how much more you know than someone else (or think you have.) This isn't a Perl game show and reputation isn't a prize. Upvotes aren't something you win through one-upmanship.

    Advice: Don't try to prove yourself. Be humble. Show respect. Help others. Expect to learn something.

      Thanks for the advice. I will try to profit from it.
Re: Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation
by Marza (Vicar) on Nov 06, 2003 at 00:11 UTC

    I would not worry about it. You can't call yourself "seasoned" unless you have a few things downvoted.

    Some of the best discussions I have read had the original post severly downvoted. One of the others mentions that is should not be down voted and people start upvoting.

    Don't be afraid of the ramifications of your post, we all learn from "stupid" questions or comments.

    Keep in mind that a PerlMonks Sainthood and $1.25 can get you a cup of coffee.

(shockme) Re: Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation
by shockme (Chaplain) on Nov 06, 2003 at 04:34 UTC
    What I've found is that people who take reputation/points seriously generally take themselves too seriously. But when you get right down to it, very little in life deserves to be taken seriously. After all, it's just life. It's not like we're gonna get out of this thing alive ...

    Loosen up, learn Perl, share and have fun. Everything else is just window dressing.

    If things get any worse, I'll have to ask you to stop helping me.

Re: Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation
by calin (Deacon) on Nov 06, 2003 at 14:57 UTC
    Why you got downvoted? Because you posted 4 (now 5) threads in a row to monkdiscuss. This is equivalent to scrolling the screen or dumping text in an IRC channel. You practically monopolized the section. It's not individual posts in themselves, but the fact that you were overly chatty and verbose. "This guy seems to be having a rave, let's cut his enthusiasm a bit", that's how the downvoters perceived the situation.

    Remember, this is a monastery, and a more reserved, monastic demeanor is required (if you want to get high reps). Off topic content is accepted, but only if it's really funny, novel, interesting, well written, and, most important, in small quantity.

    My advice: take a break, lay low for a week or so, until most people here forget about your very existence :), and then start posting again. And don't take it personally, people are just nicks here, unless they're the regular saints who post every day! :)

Re: Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation (misnoded)
by tye (Cardinal) on Nov 06, 2003 at 14:57 UTC

    My advice for the one node: In future, if you have a node posted to the wrong thread, then add a paragraph to the node saying where the node should be but not deleting the contents and then ask in the chatterbox for someone to move the node or, if no editors are free at the moment, to consider the node to be moved. And be patient.

    Read (tye)Re: why a nodelet can be kept against author wish? for more on this type of situation.

    About the only nodes I like to delete are duplicates. In the case of a duplicate, prepend "(DUPLICATE)" to the title of the one you want deleted, then have someone consider it with a reason that includes a [id://...] link to the other node.

                    - tye
Re: Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation
by bart (Canon) on Nov 06, 2003 at 17:40 UTC
    Others include all my replies here (two of which I have updated in case I was misunderstood).
    Don't sweat it. Any critical comments on the workings of the Monastery usually get a bad rep. It happens to everybody. Such is life... (I'm quite sure this note will go downwards too! — thereby proving my point. :-) )

    OTOH, you did quite make up for it with this shot into the bull's eye.

    p.s. Please don't let it make you refrain from posting justifiable critical comments. There's far too few of those around here — you likely can guess why.

Re: Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation
by artist (Parson) on Nov 06, 2003 at 17:53 UTC
    • Stop talking 'Meta'
    • Think how we can add to your Perl knowledge.
    • Think how you can use your Perl Knowledge to get your work done.
    • Begin with the end in mind. Here is the goal is Perl. XP is a mechanism and not the end result. and dont' fall in love with mechanism.

    Update: Removed the unnecessary 'pre' tag.

    artist

      Here's one more bullet point you should add to this list:

      • Whatever you do, no matter what, do not abuse the <pre> tag

      Oh, wait....

      PS: Your use of <pre> seriously disrupts the horizontal scrolling of this entire node. I usually don't post these kinds of replies, but I couldn't keep my mouth shut this time.

      Update: thanks. :)

Re: Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation
by talexb (Canon) on Nov 06, 2003 at 18:42 UTC
      This is not a complaint, but I've got a number of nodes in the -5 to -10 range now, and wondered if that was typical.

    Typical for what? Asking questions about stuff that's already covered in numerous other locations? Yes, I guess that is typical for that situation. Typical for a new member of Perl Monks? Probably not -- most new members lurk for a while to get the 'feel' of the place before posting.

      How low can they get before possibly being removed?

    Nodes don't get deleted as got lower into the nether regions of XP -- they just climb the list of the worst nodes.

      Can anyone offer me any advice to avoid being so apparently bothersome to others?

    Learn how to use the Internet to find what you are looking for. If you put an honest effort into searching and still come up empty, boil your question down to the barest essentials and post that.

    Meta discussions about XP and whatnot are a tiresome. An earlier reply to your original post suggested you compare your best nodes to your worst nodes: that's a good place to start. See if you can infer what makes a good node, and just as important, what makes a bad node. You may come up with the following:

    Good Bad
    Interesting, thought-provoking, challenging, news. Perhaps even humorous. Boring, stupid, answers easily found elsewhere, inflammatory, rehashed arguments, 300 lines of bad code.

    I hope this post was useful to you. I wish you well on your journey.

    --t. alex
    Life is short: get busy!
Re: Guidance for a beginner with a bad reputation (guide yourself)
by Aristotle (Chancellor) on Nov 09, 2003 at 11:05 UTC
    "Master", asked the student, "people think badly of me, no matter what I try to do to make them like me. What can I do? It seems so difficult." The master spoke: "Stop caring about it." And the student was enlightened.

    Makeshifts last the longest.

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