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Re: Perl Babysteps 1: Your First Simple Script

by Juerd (Abbot)
on Dec 30, 2004 at 09:13 UTC ( #418221=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Perl Babysteps 1: Your First Simple Script

I can only hope that anyone who needs a tutorial like this will change their mind about becoming a programmer before they encounter your baby steps, because your tutorial is of such a low level that almost everyone will be able to comprehend it. I don't think idiot non-programmers are a good addition to the community. PHP targeted these people and see what has happened.

Update: The original post was in 2004. It's 2008 now, and I no longer agree with what I said before.


Comment on Re: Perl Babysteps 1: Your First Simple Script
Re^2: Perl Babysteps 1: Your First Simple Script
by DaWolf (Curate) on Dec 30, 2004 at 15:33 UTC
    I can only hope that anyone who needs a tutorial like this will change their mind about becoming a programmer before they encounter your baby steps, because your tutorial is of such a low level that almost everyone will be able to comprehend it.
    I really think THIS is the quality of this tutorial. A Tutorial should be easy and should be low level, specially if it is a beginner-tutorial like this one.
    I don't think idiot non-programmers are a good addition to the community.
    I really don't think bringing idiot non-programmers to PM has anything to do with this tutorial. It's not the OP fault if it does. Anything in the whole world can bring idiots here, even the holy perldoc.
    PHP targeted these people and see what has happened.
    What? What happened? There are nice thing done in PHP out there, as there are nice thing done in Perl, Java and even ASP (*lol*).

    PHP make certain jobs extremely easy to do and still runs with good performance. Why should this be wrong? You can do idiot things in PHP, Perl, C, Java or whatever. This too has nothing to do with the language itself or this tutorial...

    Why Perl should be such a hard time to learn? This is the target of this tutorial, simplifying the initial steps to Perl. I started programming with Perl and I wish I had this node when I did. It would really make things easier for me, and by doing so I could had accomplished much more and then maybe be less-idiotic =:cP

    Regards,
      You leave me no choice.

      FLAME ON.

      A Tutorial should be easy and should be low level, specially if it is a beginner-tutorial like this one.

      Yes, a tutorial should begin at the beginning. But that doesn't mean it has to be easy or targeted at little children. Of course, if this is indeed meant for young children, then I take back what I said and can only say it's a good tutorial.

      I really don't think bringing idiot non-programmers to PM has anything to do with this tutorial. It's not the OP fault if it does. Anything in the whole world can bring idiots here, even the holy perldoc.

      If we start having tutorials like this, we get another breed of programmers here: the non-programmers who think it's elite or cool to write a script that displays their own name in an infinite loop. This forum is already loaded with an overwhelming number of basic questions, and the total amount of time the less ignorant people, who want to help people, is limited. This forum doesn't have a special way to see before opening a node what level a question will be, so many have already left PM and no longer answer questions here. I haven't left, but I sure do answer much fewer questions.

      I do think the OP of this thread is doing something that could damage the Perl community, exactly because they posted this on PM instead of somewhere else. There are already way too many tutorials that create bad programmers, and I thank random deities they're not on the best known Perl forum.

      What? What happened? There are nice thing done in PHP out there, as there are nice thing done in Perl, Java and even ASP

      Oh, yes, even Tcl can be used to create a big application in. It's entirely besides the point.

      In any language, nice programs can be made. Even with a big stinking chunk of functions and lack of modern dynamic language features, like with PHP. However, the quality of PHP is not why it attracts idiots. It's the community and the way documentation is written that do that. The Perl community is often seen as an elitist community from the outside, but I prefer that to something that wastes human resources the way the PHP community does.

      The ways of the PHP community influence how PHP is built. There is a reason that PHP does not have lexical variables and will probably never have them: it would be too hard to understand for the target audience.

      PHP make certain jobs extremely easy to do and still runs with good performance.

      Mediocre performance. And it makes certain jobs easy, yes. Jobs like calculating an easterdate. It's a nice templating language, though, except it is useful only for dynamic content. Before I realised that a web server specific templating language is stupid, I created PLP. Nowadays I want to drastically change PLP, but can't, because I made some of the same mistakes that PHP made. Fortunately, almost nobody uses PLP. Unfortunately, PHP is now the most popular web programming language in the world. I stress that PHP isn't good for *programming*.

      Why Perl should be such a hard time to learn?

      Does not have to be a hard time, or even hard. There should be something to filter out the stupidest of beginners. I think scrottie was right when he said:

      PHP got rid of the most of the dimwit perl programmers who aren't capable of doing anything that can't be done by calling a function with some arguments.

      The fuckwads that leave huge wreaking messes of code laying around their employers office for other people to clean up.

      Those littering security vulnerabilities with such density that "hackers" now days hardly have to sneeze to uncover access to a site's database or filesystem.

      PHP has raised the quality of the average Perl programmer higher than 10,000 bullets could have dreamt of. Even lining the most stupid Perl programmers in a row and getting multiple knock downs from a single bullet couldn't have realized those returns.

      No one wants to feel like they're stupid, no matter how stupid they are, and PHP lets them live their dream of being a web programmer.

      and by doing so I could had accomplished much more and then maybe be less-idiotic

      I think you mean less ignorant, not less idiotic.

      FLAME OFF.

      Juerd # { site => 'juerd.nl', plp_site => 'plp.juerd.nl', do_not_use => 'spamtrap' }

        You leave me no choice. FLAME ON.
        Not my intention. Sorry if I offended you, it wasn't the intention of my reply.
        Yes, a tutorial should begin at the beginning. But that doesn't mean it has to be easy or targeted at little children. Of course, if this is indeed meant for young children, then I take back what I said and can only say it's a good tutorial.
        Pointless. There are levels of tutorials. There are beginner-type tutorials, intermediate and so on...

        You sound like we should make the process of learning perl very hard, so it will attract only inteligent people. I can't see any use to this. Knowledge and experience are things to be shared with people who doesn't have them.

        One thing that can kill a language to a programmer is the learning curve. I know because I've quitted to learn Java or C because of this, and because I felt that learning Perl and PHP would be easier.

        And it did, so what? Are Perl and PHP idiotic languages compared to C and Java? Not IMHO.

        If you prevent people to learn the language by making the process hard you fail to bring newcomers to it. And even if you bring idiots they might become wise programmers later. But you have to give'em a chance for this to happen.
        If we start having tutorials like this, we get another breed of programmers here: the non-programmers who think it's elite or cool to write a script that displays their own name in an infinite loop.
        You can't state that. You are trying to say that IT WILL happen in this or that way. And even if it does, brig them on! Let's share knowledge with them, let's make them wise! Let's explain to them why they should do this or that.

        As posted on a bunch of other nodes here, there's no point to be rude just because you have more knowledge than other people.

        What is really idiotic is stating "You should do THIS because it's the right way to do it. And boy, I see that A LOT in here.

        If you don't have the patience to answer the "idiots" just don't do it. But also don't start call them idiots with a superior look in your face, because that hurts, and hurts a lot.

        BTW, the first piece of code I wrote was a BASIC thing that does:
        10 print "Er" 20 goto 10
        So...? Ok, it's an idiot piece of code. Stupid really, but it was my name running on my MSX screen (a B&W TV) that made my interest for code to arise.

        Today I'm far better than that (thanks PM and a bunch of other communitys like PHP Builder, Code Freaks, and so on), but if someone had told me "Oh you idiot. You do this you'll never be a good programmer" I'd be selling hot dogs, or working as a bank teller or any other thing.
        It's the community and the way documentation is written that do that. The Perl community is often seen as an elitist community from the outside, but I prefer that to something that wastes human resources the way the PHP community does.
        You are generalizing a whole community of programmers because of some. I don't like to be elitistic. It's a dull, dumb, stupid thing that doesn't bring nothing good to anyone.

        Besides, yes, PHP has a lot of flaws in it's documentation, but at least it tries to put things in a nice, clear way, wich was the same thing the OP did for Perl on this node. Why spanking them for that? That's not a good reason to do it.
        Mediocre performance.
        Well, not IMO. I've made a PHP script that parses text and checks against more than two million words in a database and then format them with bold and colors. It runs in less than one second. That's a good performance, IMO.
        And it makes certain jobs easy, yes. Jobs like calculating an easterdate.
        So what? Why should a easterdate calculation function be mocked?
        It's a nice templating language, though, except it is useful only for dynamic content.
        Well, I live for dynamic sites, so it suits me perfectly. Am I an idiot because of this?

        Perl is also excellent for building dynamic sites, so...? Why "building dynamic sites" is seen as a poor implementation of code? Have you ever imagined the web without dynamic content?
        I stress that PHP isn't good for *programming*.
        What a nasty thing to say. I still didn't found any reasonable arguments to make such a serious statement.
        Does not have to be a hard time, or even hard. There should be something to filter out the stupidest of beginners.
        Like what? A degree? A certification? A letter from the guy's parents? There isn't any good filter you can apply. If you do this you will be excluding people and thus making the community smaller.

        Even newbies and rookies often contribute with good questions and even good answers. That happen because they are free from some vices that experienced people got from programming and so they can think out of the box and present us things we never thought about it. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. Put only people with a specific background here and you'll have a constant line of thought that isn't always healthy.

        Allow differences, allow newbieness, allow idiots. Put a smile on your face when you see a newbie question. Try to remember the time when you were the newbie and you did your best to improve. The time when you thought for hours before posting a question and still were affraid of being critiscized for your newbieness.
        I think you mean less ignorant, not less idiotic.
        That was a little joke. Jesus, man, have some humour...
        FLAME OFF.
        For THAT I thank you.
        Because the world needs "elitest" programers with a little bit of skill who think they know everything sitting in judgement on who should and should not learn how to code? No! Do us all a favor and shhhhh.... Its not a club or an elite group. People can do what they want, if that rattles your cage tough.
        Well probably it's too late but... whatever. Fisrst.. I think that no matter how pro you r you shuld not FLAME on other about being lame or doing lame tutorials. The fact that forums are full of idiotic, stupid teens is that now PC and i-net connection is available for most of the ppl around the world. It's normal the number of stupid lames to increase. But no matter how many they r nor how stupid and lame they r we should not underestimate them. Or everyone of us were just gurus @ the begining ? Yea ? And we know everything. So why we shoul wish to others to spend so much time and work to learn what we already know ?Give to ppl something easy to understand, give them someting simple and the clever one will expand his knowledge in time. I hate when some GURU says well it's too lame.. of course you always were smart, you know everything all the time and other's tutirials are simple and not intresting to u cuz u r PRO. What ever.. we humans will be always like this... Wish to all of u more social contacs.. not virtuals. Peace.. Awasys try to understand others and never blame them for they did especial if they r beginners. For they writer.. thanks a lot. I don't know anyting about perl but this tutorial helped me a lot in some way. And then some did take the red pill...

      What? What happened? There are nice thing done in PHP out there, as there are nice thing done in Perl, Java and even ASP (*lol*).

      The problem isn't with the language. Actually, there are a lot of problems with the language, but that's not the main problem. It's the community. It attracted a lot of second-rate programmers.

      The result is that even Zend.com (which is supposed to be the top of the PHP community) published an article demonstrating how to do authentication with privilege levels where the level is stored in a cookie--massively insecure practice. This article appears to have been removed (thankfully), but was up for years before then.

      Here is another bright and shining member of the PHP community:

      Cons [for using PHP]
      - Requires enlightened management (of the sort that don't get nervous when you mention "free").
      - PHP developers need to be prepared for assault from "theoreticians" in other languages. Just remember: "Well then this (point browser at PHP page) must be impossible then...".

      If the only cons you can think of are that you need better management and have to tell knowledgeable people to shove off, you lack imagination. The "theoreticians" aren't bugging you because they want to feel superior. They like these things because they know it makes their job easier (not merely possible, but easier).

      That's the main problem with PHP--the community has a high dimwit-ratio.

      "There is no shame in being self-taught, only in not trying to learn in the first place." -- Atrus, Myst: The Book of D'ni.

Re^2: Perl Babysteps 1: Your First Simple Script
by Joost (Canon) on Jan 11, 2005 at 23:05 UTC
    I strongly disagree and i --'ed your node accordingly.

    Low level introductions are good since they help people without experience in programming. Hell, this tutorial will even help people with experience in <insert favorite language here> if it's the first thing they read about perl.

    Also, PHP did not target "idiot non-programmers"; it targeted "non-programmers" - which caused problems, I agree, but mainly in language design, not in documentation (except for the user-edited docs on php.net - which I frankly find terribly vague and untrustworhty)

Reaped: Re^2: Perl Babysteps 1: Your First Simple Script
by NodeReaper (Curate) on Jun 11, 2006 at 02:08 UTC
Re^2: Perl Babysteps 1: Your First Simple Script
by hippo789 (Initiate) on Mar 31, 2008 at 17:54 UTC
    imagine having never bothered to learn a programming language...that is what this tutorial is good for. i think it is perfect for someone of just that point in programming education, such as myself. i have only bothered to learn batch filing for windows pc's, but none other. so i thought this was a perfect tutorial for me...

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