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Re^4: Performance, Abstraction and HOP

by BrowserUk (Pope)
on Sep 02, 2005 at 07:03 UTC ( #488563=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re^3: Performance, Abstraction and HOP
in thread Performance, Abstraction and HOP

Avoiding function calls because they are slow is an absurd response to performance problems.

Shame. I thought you were implying that there was some non-absurd response--but I guess it's just academic hot air.


Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
Lingua non convalesco, consenesco et abolesco. -- Rule 1 has a caveat! -- Who broke the cabal?
"Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
The "good enough" maybe good enough for the now, and perfection maybe unobtainable, but that should not preclude us from striving for perfection, when time, circumstance or desire allow.


Comment on Re^4: Performance, Abstraction and HOP
Re^5: Performance, Abstraction and HOP
by Dominus (Parson) on Sep 02, 2005 at 14:04 UTC
    Said BrowserUk:
    I thought you were implying that there was some non-absurd response
    I was. But since we haven't even stipulated that function calls are slow---whatever that means---why are you suprised that I don't know how to make them fast, this week, in an instantaneous response to your demand? Whether or not Mark Dominus happens know how to do something right now has no special bearing on whether or not it would be a good thing to do.

    I guess it's just academic hot air.
    Please try to contain your disappointment next time I can't answer one of your questions. There was no reason to insult me.

      Sorry you feel insulted, but without a mechanism "... to fix the implementation ...", the idea *is* 'academic'. As in:

    • Theoretical or speculative without a practical purpose or intention.

      Conversly, avoiding unnecessary levels of function calling is a real, practical, fruitful way of achieving better performance, where that is required, available to anyone who needs it right now.


      Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
      Lingua non convalesco, consenesco et abolesco. -- Rule 1 has a caveat! -- Who broke the cabal?
      "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
      The "good enough" maybe good enough for the now, and perfection maybe unobtainable, but that should not preclude us from striving for perfection, when time, circumstance or desire allow.
        Howdy!

        It remains incumbent on the proponent to make the case that the amount of function calling is actually unnecessary and that reducing it will actually improve performance on the desired axis.

        Oh, by the way, the gratuitous insult remains on the table. If you intend to issue an apology, note that you have not done so by the words you wrote.

        yours,
        Michael
        Says BrowserUk:
        Sorry you feel insulted...
        I "feel insulted" because you insulted me. And I don't believe you are sorry.
        without a mechanism "... to fix the implementation ...", the idea *is* 'academic'.
        I notice that you did not try to defend your insulting characterization of my message as "just hot air".

        Which characterization I dispute, by the way. My remark was not "just hot air", nor was it "academic" in the sense that you meant it. I think most of the other people here are thoughtful enough to see that.

      This reminds me when I was a child and my parents argued. For what seemed nonsense to me child - and seems nonsense to me adult.

      You both are exceptional characters, and positive ones I like to add. You both gave (and surely will give) much, much to the Perl community. And now we child (in the Perl sense) see you both argue this way - this is no good.

      I'm not anglophone, as I said many times. And I understand that expressions in other languages cannot generally be translated - they could be ruder in English than in Italian. But what I cannot miss to observe is that BrowserUk never said that you're an academic that can only spit out hot air. BrowserUk was referring to the fact ("it") that the whole argument, without a solid backup as to where the optimisation could be shifted, reduced to something abstract and unfeasable in Perl*.

      To this extent, it seems perfectly in line with many other examples here in PM, where things are referred to as "crap", "nonsense" and similars (these are way ruder IMHO) by people that have too few time to be both effective and polite. Were it an ad-personam insult, I think it should have sounded like "I guess it's just your usual academic hot air" or something like this. Without "your usual", it seems not directed to you, but to what you said, thus perfectly in line with what one can expect to read here.

      As a consequence, I also found reasonable that BrowserUk was sorry you felt insulted, but did not admit to have insulted you. I hope herveus will forgive me for citing something you replied in a further post, but I felt stunned by the fact that you didn't believe BrowserUk. This would sound as a big counter-slap to me - you're telling he's a liar.

      I also think that something closer to an insult (whose weight I'm not able to measure in English) actually was in BrowserUk post - it was the word "shame". That would sound as a slap to me (something like: "you have to be ashame for this"), indeed, and I find it weird that you all (herveus included) were quite happy and forgiving about it. Listening parents argue teaches something, at least - something I won't ever find in books.

      * Should I say perl here?

      Flavio
      perl -ple'$_=reverse' <<<ti.xittelop@oivalf

      Don't fool yourself.
        I also think that something closer to an insult (whose weight I'm not able to measure in English) actually was in BrowserUk post - it was the word "shame".

        For the record. My use of the word "shame", is a habitual colloquialism that is a contraction of the phrase; "That's a shame". It is (always) intended to convey my disappointment, and not as a slap to the recipient.

        In this case, I was disappointed that I was not going to learn something useful, as I had genuinely thought I was going to from the earlier post.

        For the rest of your post, I would say that you have hit the nail exactly on the head.


        Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
        Lingua non convalesco, consenesco et abolesco. -- Rule 1 has a caveat! -- Who broke the cabal?
        "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
        The "good enough" maybe good enough for the now, and perfection maybe unobtainable, but that should not preclude us from striving for perfection, when time, circumstance or desire allow.

      As the OP actually tested your Stream.pm module, and the code using it was 100+ times slower than a piece of very casual code, what were absurd were really those sentences you spit.

      The person who said "academic hot air" was wrong for one thing. There was hot air, but no academic value at all.

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