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Any interest / use in a Perl-Work section?

by punch_card_don (Curate)
on Mar 22, 2007 at 23:23 UTC ( #606135=monkdiscuss: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??

Mad Mad Mad Mad Monks,

Following some recent posts in Meditations on the trials and tribulations of being a contract Perl coder, I received more than one expression of interest in the general subject outside of the thread. I posted my questiouns in Meditations as being the least unsuitable area for my issues on PM.

So I wondered:

  1. just how much interest is there out there for discussing the work or business side of being a Perl coder
  2. are Monks avoiding discussing that because there is no really appropriate area for such
  3. would there be any value to opening a section on PM for it? Or would that stray too far from PM's core purpose?



Forget that fear of gravity,
Get a little savagery in your life.

Comment on Any interest / use in a Perl-Work section?
Re: Any interest / use in a Perl-Work section?
by ysth (Canon) on Mar 23, 2007 at 02:57 UTC
    1. I'd guess there's a lot of interest in such discussion.
    2. Meditations is an appropriate area, by my reading of Where should I post X?.
    3. I'd like to have fewer areas, less specialized, not more, more specialized. But having such discussions in the existing areas doesn't seem outside PM's core purpose to me.
    Update: rephrased point 3 to make my meaning more clear

      I disagree. The important (and successful) sections at PerlMonks are not split up by subject matter. They are split up by intention. Which section you post to on the subject of the work/business side of being a Perl coder depends entirely on your intention when posting.

      If you are seeking wisdom regarding your work/business environment or if you are meditating (that is, sharing some realization you have come to) about work, then you'd post to the obvious (I hope, given my phrasing) section based on that intention.

      Which reminds me that I'm tempted to rename SoPW to SoW because I still see too much "not really a Perl question" whining. The site is here for Perl coders to interact. It'd be right boring if the only questions people could ask had to be "really" Perl questions, especially given how some people seem to interpret that.

      - tye        

        I don't know enough about site dynamics to have anything of value to say on the main issue, but your comment about SoPW caught my eye, and I hoped you might be able to clarify where you and ysth diasgree.

        1) This might seem hopelessly trivial, but I the name as it stands has a flair to it that SoW lacks.

        Might there be another way to reduce the whining? I'm too clueless to suggest a how or where, but could there be a clarification (somewhere!?) that the questions don't *have* to be "real" Perl questions (perhaps) that it is, as you say on the core topic, more an issue of intent - that one needs to be seeking the wisdom of Perl people.

        2) If I'm out of order, I'm sorry, but I am not sure I understand where you and ysth disagree. Could you tell me if I'm on Pluto? As I see it:

        The OP asked 3 questions, but they key one was whether there should be another category/section/??? added specifically for work questions.

        ysth opined that work questions are not outside the core purpose of PM and said there should be 'fewer less specialized areas, not more more specialized ones'. I thought he was saying there should not be a separate section. (ysth, love, could you clarify?)

        I got the impression that it was that last part you were disagreeing with, but you also seem to be saying that there should not be a separate section, so I must be misunderstanding one (or both!) of you.

        Eliana

Re: Any interest / use in a Perl-Work section?
by j3 (Friar) on Mar 23, 2007 at 03:26 UTC

    +1. I like the idea of a PM Contracting area. I've been starting to do some independent work here and there for folks, and it would be valuable to share experiences and learn from others.

    Seems like it would benefit the Perl community, to help have more informed Perl-centric contractors out there.

      I would be strongly against an area of this site for contractors, as much as I would be against an area specifically for sysadmins, biologists, or students. The perl you write as a contractor (or student, or sysadmin) is indistinguishable from that you write as a real employee or which you write to control your model railway at home. The problems that you experience specifically because you're a contractor have nothing to do with perl, and so you're better off discussing them with your fellow tax-dodging slimeballscontractors in places like this.
        That's why I phrased it "...discussing the work or business side of being a Perl coder...", with the (apparently botched) intention of including all Perl coders' work experiences. "I don't get no respect", "How's the Perl coder job market?", "Problems communicating with non-Perlers", "Useful contract clauses", "The issue of PM postings ownership" (did this ever get resolved?), "Pitching Perl to prospects", "How to find businesses/employers that use Perl".....

        After all, although Perl does have its own innate value that transcends life, most of us are Perl coding to earn a living.

        But, more interesting - I would be sincerely interested to read more on "tax-dodging slimeballs contractors". Don't worry, the odds of you hurting my feelings are slim to nil. I'm honestly interested in learning more about why some poeple out there might have this opinion of contractors.




        Forget that fear of gravity,
        Get a little savagery in your life.
Re: Any interest / use in a Perl-Work section?
by f00li5h (Chaplain) on Mar 23, 2007 at 04:08 UTC
Re: Any interest / use in a Perl-Work section?
by greatshots (Pilgrim) on Mar 23, 2007 at 04:49 UTC
Re: Any interest / use in a Perl-Work section?
by Zaxo (Archbishop) on Mar 23, 2007 at 07:06 UTC

    There is a traditional resistance to competing with Perl Jobs. Unfortunately, there are few opportunities for perlers to see employer references there.

    After Compline,
    Zaxo

      I find that subscribing to the employer's local perl monks group's mailing list is an excellent way to find out about employers.

      You can pretty much guarantee that someone on the list works for them, or used to work for them, or knows someone who works for them, and you'll soon find out which employers are having difficulty recruiting - and why.

      The idea isn't to list jobs, but just to discuss the ins and outs of working with Perl on your own (as a contractor, consultant, etc.). Punch_card_don gave some great examples (see above) of the sort of topics that are of interest.
Re: Any interest / use in a Perl-Work section?
by graq (Curate) on Mar 23, 2007 at 11:16 UTC

    Perhaps the sections can remain as they are, but allow posts to have attributes (such as Work, Homework, Off Topic, Hobby).

    I know we all wish for good attributes

    -=( Graq )=-

Re: Any interest / use in a Perl-Work section?
by Limbic~Region (Chancellor) on Mar 23, 2007 at 12:34 UTC
    punch_card_don,
    I originally skipped this thread because I do not work as developer. Well, that and the fact that I can't recall any new proposed section ever being accepted. The two most recent sections that I can remember RAT and Tidings were brain children of members of the inner circle. I could very well be misremembering.

    I decided to come back to the thread because I think having a unique section to discuss work related trials and tribulations would be beneficial to the community. I regularly see questions from new folks in the chatterbox and on IRC asking about how to get a good job. I see the same kinds of frustrations that come up (it wasn't invented here syndrome). I see the intellectual property and legal issues come up (tilly). While these things only very tangently affect me, I can see they affect the community a great deal.

    Cheers - L~R

      We are in complete agreement. Wondered if anyone else thought so. Thanks.

      Anyone else?




      Forget that fear of gravity,
      Get a little savagery in your life.

        Disclaimer: I've known punch_card_don for quite a while, and we've also discussed this idea over E-Mails and CB messages ..

        I think it would be very useful to have a new section in Perlmonks to do with Professional Perl or Independent Perl.

        This would include

        • Discussion about how to promote your business locally and globally
        • Discussion or recommendations on the production readiness of various modules
        • Ways to explain licensing to clients
        • Perl friendly web providers
        This would not include Thoughts? Comments?

        Alex / talexb / Toronto

        "Groklaw is the open-source mentality applied to legal research" ~ Linus Torvalds

      The two most recent sections that I can remember RAT and Tidings were brain children of members of the inner circle.

      Those aren't sections. RAT is just a node lister, and Tidings is a wiki. The youngest section is Inner Scriptorium, which was created on 2004-09-09. Even so, your point is valid, as it too was motivated from within the circle.

      The problem with sections, IMHO, is that they allow only a single label on any given node (a node cannot be in multiple sections), and the range of those labels is very small and static. The obvious solution, IMHO, is for nodes to be taggable with multiple keywords from an extended controlled vocabulary.

      A word spoken in Mind will reach its own level, in the objective world, by its own weight

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