Re: The Case for Learning Perl
by talexb (Chancellor) on Jun 11, 2002 at 20:49 UTC
|
Well said, but ..
I believe the community here wants to retain some civility between members and visitors. Civility requires adherence to a glob of rules that are really just common sense and politesse as applied to electronic communications.
While it may bruise visitors' egos when their "Hurry, I need an answer to this" gets downvoted, it's nothing less than should be expected. Picture this:
The coffee shop is half full of people, some talking in groups, some reading magazines or papers. Some are drinking coffee, some have tea, others have bottles of fruit juice. A few have plates in front of them. Every few minutes people get up from the table they're at and join a different table or leave altogether.
The walls are packed with neatly indexed papers, textbooks, PODs and articles. A staff member is on duty for questions, in case a visitor wants to search for information on a particular topic. The name badge says 'Super'.
There are just a few small pictures on the walls; apart from that the interior decoration is sparse but functional. New arrivals (regulars or first time visitors) get a few waves from the people already inside the coffee shop. The atmosphere is serene. The serving people behind the counter are quick and efficient, with name tags that say 'MySQL', 'Apache', "Linux' and 'Perl'.
A first time visitor comes in, picks a table with some people at it, grabs a chair, pushes their way in and sits down. They plunk down a ratty text, knocking a plate to the floor, and demand help with their problem. Conversation slows. A staff member comes out from behind the counter to clean up the broken crockery.
The visitor leaves the listing on the first table, and storms over to another table and slaps down another copy of the listing. More astonished faces, and the coffee shop gets quieter.
Slowly, the ghostly number above the newcomer's head turns from a light coloured zero to a red coloured number. Many hands point to the literature available on the shelves that line the coffee shop. Frustrated, the visitor storms out.
The conversation returns, perhaps a little louder than before, with a few moments of laughter. A few people flip through the ratty listing left behind and leave notes for the stranger, in case they return.
Outside, the world hurries on ..
All that to say, if you have any common courtesy, or if you've been on the Internet for a while, you should know that when visiting a new community, be polite. This means
- No shouting
- Don't make any demands for immediate service
- Speak clearly and distinctly
- Come prepared
Not really much different from common sense, eh?
--t. alex
"Nyahhh (munch, munch) What's up, Doc?" --Bugs Bunny
| [reply] [Watch: Dir/Any] |
|
You make a good point, but I feel that those that want to learn ask for help in a rather positive way. I can give you a list of nodes where an Anonymous Monk committed a serious faux pas however, registered users can also shatter plates and ignore the books on the shelves. We have had some users that did nothing but cause trouble.
Civility is one of the key elements learned/acquired during one's stay at the Monestary. Those that have been here a while may still not have learned it. Many Anonymous Monks have been more than humble in their manner in which they ask questions.
I don't want everyone and their mom to join if they have no desire to learn. If a script kiddie or a frustrated compsci student wants some help and that's that, fine. But if someone shows some initiative to learn, and seems like the type to stick around, then I think we should extend him or her an invitation to join.
John J Reiser
newrisedesigns.com
| [reply] [Watch: Dir/Any] |
|
First, Perl is not an easy language. Perl was not the
first language i learned, nor the
second, or
third, or even the
fourth. Some people are
simply not ready for Perl, and i for
one would never put someone on a motorcycle before they
first learned how to ride a bicycle very well.
You raise some very good points, and i do appreciate
reading such arguments to remind me of why i am here, but
not everyone that comes asking for help should be using
this language right now. It's dangerous without
proper wisdom, and sometimes you have to say "don't touch
that - you will get burned" in a rather scolding tone.
As for those with initiative to learn, they will
stick around without anyone having to extend them an
invitation because they will see the benefit of staying.
I am not saying that we should not extend invitations, i am
simply saying that those who really want to learn realize
that it is up to themselves to put forth the effort,
not us.
Good root post, by the way.
jeffa
L-LL-L--L-LL-L--L-LL-L--
-R--R-RR-R--R-RR-R--R-RR
B--B--B--B--B--B--B--B--
H---H---H---H---H---H---
(the triplet paradiddle with high-hat)
| [reply] [Watch: Dir/Any] |
|
|
|
|
:> The Case for Learning Perl
by ignatz (Vicar) on Jun 12, 2002 at 11:26 UTC
|
A long time ago I was playing in an orchestra used for a conducting master class given by Edo de Waart who at the time was conductor of the SF Symphony. The participants were all young graduate level conductors. The piece was the first movement to Dvorak's New World Symphony.
A woman came out and started conducting. Her technique was stiff and she was unprepared. That much was obvious to everyone in the room but her. As she led the orchestra, 'Maestro' de Waart walked up to the podium and with a slight wave of his hand stopped the orchestra. "You are wasting everyone's time. You will never make it as a conductor. Who is next?" The woman stepped down and left the hall in tears.
It was the cruelest thing I had ever seen. Much more so than any "flame" I've read online. Her big moment in front of the master and he crushes her like a used tin can. Was he right to have done that? I have yet to decide.
The one thing that everyone there that I talked to agreed on was that it would either ruin her or turn her into a much better conductor.
Whenever one comes before a master and asks his/her advice, there is always the risk that he will give it to you. When he does, no matter how harsh or cruel or discouraging be grateful that he has. One comes to learn the way, not to feel good. If one cares about the toll it takes on one's pride, better to travel down another path.
()-()
\"/
`
| [reply] [Watch: Dir/Any] |
|
In the courses we teach, I stress to the instructors that the most important thing is to understand where the student is at when they ask a question, and that our job is to create a bridge from there to wherever they've paid us to take them.
However, sometimes these bridges are of the form of questions, not answers. Perhaps that annoys the "give it to me" crowd, but it certainly provides the proper environment for ongoing learning, long after we've packed up our laser pointers and headed home.
I'm also reminded of an aphorism given in one of the many management training classes in which I've participated:
You're only as strong as your strongest opponent.
On that scale, I'm
pretty strong. {grin}
-- Randal L. Schwartz, Perl hacker
| [reply] [Watch: Dir/Any] |
|
In the courses (Solaris, Perl, Networking) I often do the same.
Replying to questions with counter questions. There can be
several reasons for counter questions.
- A question arises from a wrong assumption of how things are.
By asking questions you can quickly narrow down where the
wrong assumption is being made.
- It can give the student a much better understanding of why
a question has a certain answer. Understanding is far more
valuable than knowing.
- Sometimes a question is phrased so poorly (often by lack of
understanding or knowing) that there is no answer, or the
answer doesn't help the student. Asking counter questions
can be more helpful than saying "Your question doesn't make sense".
Unfortunally, if you apply such techniques on the net, be it on
Usenet, web forums like this, and also on IRC, you are quickly
labelled as being a bitch. For some reason, it's often expected
to just give the answer.
Abigail
| [reply] [Watch: Dir/Any] |
|
|
Interesting that you drew upon a music analogy -- I too have a story in that area to tell.
After singing with a wonderful bunch of guys in a chorus who couldn't sing a tuned chord more than once a week, back in 1998 I decided to audition for a place in the Northern Lights, a new chorus that was starting up. They were sounding very hot.
With Grade 7 in Piano, Grade 2 in Music Theory and my experience with the previous chorus (section leader), I worked hard and went in for the audition. It was a tough audition and I was plenty nervous. After the audition I stood around waiting for someone to congratulate me.
Ha.
The Assistant Director came over and said that I'd done well, but I wasn't up to their standards. I was welcome to continue to come out and sing with the chorus and improve, and I could have one more shot at an audition to the group.
Ouch.
To say that the audition failure affected me would be to understate the point. I was miserable, then made that realization that this was a challenge. If I worked hard before the first audition, I redoubled my efforts afterwards. After the second audition, the Director of the group came over to tell me that although I'd improved, I still wasn't up to the standards of the group.
But admission to the group is also granted to those who show some definite signs of promise, and he admitted me on those grounds.
I worked even harder for him after that, and I still do.
The lesson to be learned? When corrected by a wiser person (or a reasonable facsimile), do not take this personally, for if you are committed to your art, you will not take it personally, but rather study harder -- or realize that you are labouring in the wrong field. When the conductor of the SF Symphony told the woman to sit down, he was doing her a favour, most likely saving her and her instructors a great deal of time -- she must have had to re-evaluate her decision to take part in that field. That's very valuable feedback, the same feedback that is given freely here.
--t. alex
"Nyahhh (munch, munch) What's up, Doc?" --Bugs Bunny
| [reply] [Watch: Dir/Any] |
Re: The Case for Learning Perl
by gumby (Scribe) on Jun 12, 2002 at 21:29 UTC
|
I have only used Perl for a short period of time: as in any area of human wisdom, there are those who have great knowledge and experience.
'It appears to me that if one wishes to make progress in mathematics, one should study the masters and not the pupils.'
- N.H. Abel | [reply] [Watch: Dir/Any] |