perlmeditation tphyahoo <h2>Survey of Surveys on HTML Templating systems / Web Frameworks (Sorting out the Technology Soup)</h2> <i>UPDATE: I either missed <a href="http://catalyst.perl.org">Catalyst</a>, or Catalyst wasn't out yet, when I first posted this. At this point in time, I am devoting most of my "web framework learning" energy to learning this framework. Run and check it out!</i> <p> I need to choose an html templating system that plays well with Dreamweaver for the design aspects, and an open source db (mysql or postgres) for the back end. <p> Ideal would be a mock application (or open source real application) written with Mason or Embperl (my top choices) including a framework for managing the db, that's all ready to go, and I can just start tinkering with it to suit my purposes, rather than start something from scratch. But I wasn't able to find anything like that. <p> Anyway, after spending some time doing research mainly with perlmonks and google, I thought it would be helpful to others in my situation to present a survey of my findings. There is a LOT written about this, without a clear "winner" in the competing technology soup. (Though as stated above, I'm beginning to lean towards Mason/Embperl.) <p> UPDATE: There's a mason demo at <a href="http://apprentice.perl.org/">Perl Apprenticeship Site</a>. Unfortunately I don't think this is db enabled, but I could be wrong about that -- need to check into this more carefully. This is the "official" sample site described in the <a href=http://www.masonbook.com>masonbook</a>. More promisingly, there a number of <a href="http://www.masonhq.com/?MasonPoweredApps">mason powered apps</a> at mastonhq.com. Bricolage uses postgres, I may be looking at that first. <p> A not very satisfying demo of embperl is at <a href="http://www.clueful.co.uk/mbeattie/presentations/oxlug-oct99/">Talk on Apache, mod_perl, and embperl</a> <p> Also, [Metaperl] (aka [princepawn]) was kind enough to provide me with a demo app of his Seamstress framework. There is no link to do this from his web page, but ask nicely and hopefully you will be in luck. <p> Metaperl also referred me to the "bivio" framework, which also has a demo "petshop" webshop, nicely tar.gzed. (See discussion below). However, in [The Bivio Model and Algorithm for Authorization (slides available)], Metaperl notes that even after intensive study bivio strained his powers of understanding... which I find kind of scary. So, I may choose to study bivio as an example of a really cool framework, but do my real work in Mason (or possibly Seamstress). <hr> <h2>Overview</h2> <readmore> Of hisorical interest may be <a href="http://jonas.liljegren.org/perl/ideas/letter.txt">jonas liljegren's rant</a> (undated, my guess is 1999 or before) <ul> <li>Back in the day, he was "Frustrated about all these template models!"</li> <li>Of major modern templating systems, mentions only HTML::Template.</li> <li>The more things change, the more they stay the same.</li> </ul> <p> A more current major article on the topic is [perrin]'s <a href="http://perl.apache.org/docs/tutorials/tmpl/comparison/comparison.html">Choosing a templating system</a> also at perl.com <a href="http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2001/08/21/templating.html?page=1">here</a>. (Last major change Jun 5 2002, originally written Sep 21 2001. I gave both urls since the article appears to be updated occasionally, so maybe one is more current than the other.) <ul> <li>A long article that attempts to compare all major modern perl templating systems.</li> <li>At the end it's findings are summarized as:</li> </ul> <table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1"> <tbody><tr> <th class="table-title-bg"><br></th> <th class="table-title-bg"> <div class="table-title"> Application Framework </div> </th> <th class="table-title-bg"> <div class="table-title"> Pipeline or Callback </div> </th> <th class="table-title-bg"> <div class="table-title"> Parsing Method </div> </th> <th class="table-title-bg"> <div class="table-title"> Language </div> </th> </tr> <tr> <td class="table-bg"> HTML::Mason </td> <td class="table-bg"> Framework </td> <td class="table-bg"> Callback </td> <td class="table-bg"> Compiled </td> <td class="table-bg"> Perl </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table-bg"> Template Toolkit </td> <td class="table-bg"> Just Templates </td> <td class="table-bg"> Pipeline </td> <td class="table-bg"> Compiled </td> <td class="table-bg"> Mini-Language </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table-bg"> Apache::ASP </td> <td class="table-bg"> Framework </td> <td class="table-bg"> Callback </td> <td class="table-bg"> Compiled </td> <td class="table-bg"> Perl and XSL </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table-bg"> HTML::Embperl </td> <td class="table-bg"> Framework </td> <td class="table-bg"> Callback </td> <td class="table-bg"> Compiled </td> <td class="table-bg"> Perl </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table-bg"> SSI </td> <td class="table-bg"> Just Templates </td> <td class="table-bg"> Callback </td> <td class="table-bg"> Repeated Parse </td> <td class="table-bg"> Mini-Language </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table-bg"> AxKit </td> <td class="table-bg"> Framework </td> <td class="table-bg"> Pipeline </td> <td class="table-bg"> Compiled or Cached Parse Tree </td> <td class="table-bg"> Perl and XSL and Mini-Language(s) </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table-bg"> HTML::Template </td> <td class="table-bg"> Just Templates </td> <td class="table-bg"> Pipeline </td> <td class="table-bg"> Cached Parse Tree </td> <td class="table-bg"> Mini-Language </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="table-bg"> Text::Template </td> <td class="table-bg"> Just Templates </td> <td class="table-bg"> Pipeline </td> <td class="table-bg"> Compiled </td> <td class="table-bg"> Perl </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <p> This led me to conclude I probably want to use either Mason or Embperl, as these are the two top contenders for frameworks. <p> Pertinent to perl newbies for getting started on web apps is [How to calculate development time?]. Newbie (at the time) Siddharta asks, and gets, advice for building a web application from scratch. This is mainly about estimating project time, but there is also a lot of advice on which framework to use. Good thread. <p> And, some Perlmonks threads that discuss the pros and cons of various templating systems without a clear consensus preference for a particular one. <p> [What is the best tool to embed perl in HTML?] (Q&A, August 2, 2000) / [Best templating system?] (Jun 30 2000) <li> Mason, Embperl, and Template are recommended by various monks.</li> <li> It's stated that Embperl plays well with Dreamweaver</li> </ul> [Refining the CGI process through structure and templates] (Apr 16, 2001, Boo Radley) <ul> <li> Started by [Boo Radley], attempting to roll his own Web/CGI framework </li> <li> Recommended by princepawn on his home node.</li> <li> Corion plugs [HTML::FormValidator] and others agree</li> </ul> <p> [OO CGI Engine] (Jan 2 2002) <ul> <li>Discussion of OpenInteract, CGI::Application, and HTML::Template, with positive things to say about all these.</li> <li> dnmiller2k mentions that CGI::Application uses HTML::Template, but Swiftone counters that this is just for installation, and you can use it with Template-Toolkit if you want.</li> </ul> Update: No demo for "open interact", at least none that I could find. But supposedly it's <a href="http://www.openinteract.org/demo/">coming soon</a>. <p> Another [perrin] article that's worth a read is <a href="http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2001/10/17/etoys.html?page=1">Building a Large-scale E-commerce Site with Apache and mod_perl</a>, which recounts his adventures at <a href="http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_28-5-2002_pg5_11">now-defunct</a> etoys. </readmore> <hr> <h2>[Princepawn]/[Metaperl]/[Merlyn] Stuff</h2> <readmore> <ul> <li>[Princepawn] and [Merlyn] have posted much information and musing on this topic. Of course there are others, but for some reason I kept coming across these two in my own researches.</li> <li>[Princepawn] Stuff:</li> <ul> <li>Princepawn has come up with his own framework, Seamstress, though I'm not sure how serious he is about it. His node has a list of various perl html templating frameworks, including a lot of obscure ones.</li> <li>[Web Application Frameworks and their Templating Engines with a Comparative Study of Template and HTML::Template] (princepawn, apr 26 2001)</li> <li>In [rant on = qw(HTML::Mason Embperl Template etc) ;] (Nov 09, 2001) princepawn argues that his Seamstress is better than the alternatives. Criticizes not only Mason, but also Embperl and Template. I think this puts princepawn in a similar camp as merlyn, along the lines that flexibility is more valuable than an extended heavily used/tested framework like mason which has overhead that never gets used, or that gets in the way. But maybe I'm oversimplifying</li> <li>And he pops up in various other discussions, such as [Template Toolkit vs HTML::Mason] (merlyn and princepawn)</li> <li>And [mini-languages for MVC view/controller manipulation], which is a little flamy on Seamstress versus Mason, but not too bad.</li> </ul> <li>[Merlyn] Stuff:</li> <ul> <li>[mason and embperl] Sep 02, 2000 / [Text::Template] morphs into [Template Toolkit vs HTML::Mason] (Oct 22 2000)</li> <li> Merlyn used mason for a while and likes it, but eventually switches over to template toolkit. I think for him, Template Toolkit is just the more flexible option. Merlyn is a perl wizard though... maybe for a beginner Mason would be more appropriate. ?</li> </ul> </ul> </readmore> <hr> <h2>Dreamweaver and Perl</h2> <readmore> <p> Jeffa wrote <a href="http://jeffa.perlmonk.org/dreamweaver">HTML::Template extensions for dreamweaver</a> which enables you to "se HTML::Template tags in Dreamweaver just like they would any other object - by clicking on an icon which places the resulting HTML code in the document." <p> But it's no longer being maintained. <p> Two perlmonks threads about this. <ul> <li>[Dreamweaver/Perl integration tools] (Dec 8 2001)</li> <ul> <li> User wants help integrating Dreamweaver Templates (a Dreamweaver feature not to be confused with perl templating) and perl (doesn't specify which perl web framework) </li> <li> Adviced that [Jeffa] put together a tool that helps you manage perl from within Dreamweaver, using Dreamweaver's "Dreamweaver Template" feature</li> <li> Tphyahoo (me) mentions <a href="http://www.masonhq.com/?MasonAndDreamweaver">MasonAndDreamweaver</a> at the MasonHQ wiki. This seems to indicate that Mason and Dreamweaver play together okay.</li> </ul> <li>[HTML::Template and Dreamweaver MX] (Nov 21 2003)</li> <ul> <li> Newbie asks for help with Dreamweaver and HTML::Template (not specifying he wants help with Dreamweaver Templates)</li> <li> Newbie is advised to have a look at Jeffa's tool for integration with Dreamweaver Templates (I think this advice was confused).</li> <li> Jeffa states that he hasn't been maintaining this since 2001, and it's now out of date since there have been a lot of changes with Dreamweaver MX. "Dreamweaver is a "funky beast" says Jeffa.</li> <li> Tphyahoo (me) mentions that Dreamweaver Templates are a special Dreamweaver feature, which aren't used on every project, and suggests Mason, linking back to the 2001 article.</li> </ul> </ul> Also found [CGI.pm - Dreamweaver or somesuch?] (April 2001) <ul> <li> Newbie asks for help integrating perl and dreamweaver</li> <li> Monks express general disdain for Dreamwever</li> </ul> Conclusion: Dreamwever Templates and perl, maybe not such a good idea. However, Dreamwever and Mason, maybe not such a bad idea. Also [What is the best tool to embed perl in HTML?] stated that Embperl and Dreamweaver is ok. <hr> </readmore> <h2>Descriptions/Tutorials on particular frameworks</h2> <readmore> [HTML::Mason module review] (Feb 1 2001) <ul> <li>Overall positive review of this (at the time) new framework</li> </ul> Perl.com article <a href="http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2001/06/05/cgi.html">Using CGI Application</a> (June 5 2001) <p> I'm sure there's a lot more, so if I get comments I will try to update as appropriate. </readmore> <h2>Other stuff</h2> <readmore><p> [proposal for HTML::FormValidator upgrade] <ul> <li>likes html::formvalidator, but mentions some things that could be done better.</li> <li>At end mentions that many of his concerns are addressed by data::formvalidator</li> </ul> </readmore> <p><small>Edit by [tye]: Remove P tags inside TABLE</small></p>