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jakobi's scratchpad

by jakobi (Pilgrim)
on Sep 18, 2009 at 18:52 UTC ( #796181=scratchpad: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


for this section also check the thread q: is there a new user thread to add comments to?.
TODO: clean up this section together with the FAQlets and the raw bookmarks; maybe forkoff the newbie stuff to a separate page (or thread???)

old stuff follows, raw bookmarks still to sort into faqlets at EOF

jdporter -- re: tutorial quest - some more small fries

> Debugging and Optimization is just a list of nodes...

That adds a bit to the challenge. What I still see would be these. Do you see anything sane and HELPFUL in the list below?

Something that would make Debugging and Optimization better for new monks? (IMHO mere replication or splitting of help or listing too many proper tutorials would make it worse instead for perl beginners. Make them drown in help isn't help, not even with super search, even if it could be restricted to search-only-the-contents-of-the-links-this-list-points-to)

  • If manually adding to the list is possible, adding associated RFC or discussion threads that spawned the tutorial (add still should collect feedback for it) after the tutorial should be possible (nodes 745150 and 744845 below 745674).

  • If it is sorted, mangling flag or titles might help. If e.g. the eclipse node I extracted from one thread gets sorted to a strange positon, things get a bit more funny.

  • If this list-of-nodes type can also a) list the node type in addition to the link (like SuperSearch does; so this link it the tutorial, that is it's the discussion and comments for the tutorial) or b) offer to include header or footer information, e.g. the footnote below could be added or a not-really suitable location for something
  • wrapping with proxy nodes might help: automatically forward (server side or META) / refresh / 302 (both meta; or whatever the http redirect code was) or least contain just the link to the new node(s) in a node of type list-of-nodes. Or 1:N links, which is what Debugging and Optimization currently is. Replacing each current link with another list-of-nodes comes to mind, that contains first the tutorial, then the tutorial's meta nodes (that is RFC, ...). A bit on the ugly side.

Doing it altogether differently

  • another angle, add all tutorial spawning discussions and RFCs visible at either top or bottom of the RFC. Might be a worthwile request in its own right.. An example of this is Basic debugging checklist. Note quite as visible as what I wanted, but certainly sufficient.
  • replacing the node with the most questionable and shortest ever tutorial on perlmonks: More or less hijack the node title of the list node, make the new node a suitable type and add the original content (if the old node should not be deleted, which is probably true, then make it link to the new).

Meta

  • It's not quite clear to me, why some 'used-like-tutorials' nodes have some comments and others have none and don't offer any way to comment. Maybe all should. Rather Not in the node itself: I'm quite hesistant to add questions and feedback to the tutorial node itself. IMHO this should be in a second node to manage it (size, load time, ability to ahem "log-rotate+archive" the comment/RFC thread).
  • Nodelet use seems to be growing on me slightly. But it looks like I missed or skipped too much about the PM internals when reading the FAQs on perlmonks itself. Either admonish-/me-aka-new_monk-to-rtfm(without-pointer-or-node-id) or tutorial quest omission.
    /me said with typos, somewhat extended here:
    "ps: =tutlist - tried supersearch body-text on it: it is mostly tough beans + permission denied -- are there any public (more highlevel overview, not detail nor internal discussion) descriptions of perlmonk.org's implementation and document (incl. organisation) structure available?"
    Also the wiki links I saw recently were all perm-denied, and one or two of them - with a bit of down-editing - might be suitable for public access and offer some the pm-site-basics (node-type info,...) I don't know yet. If copying to allow public access, (editor+pedagogue clan time should be conserved as a valuable resource, even if I abuse it now :> ), mark the copies 'info as of DATE'/'internal master-version is LINK', then you'd not even need to keep it in (tight) sync with the real restricted doc.

    Just added this to my 'missing PM-newbie meme-section' in jakobi: * know enough about PM-site structure and document types to not waste pedagogue or pmdev clan time due to trivial misunderstandings and invalid assumptions. These aren't sufficient for that worthy goal: Pmdev documentation, jdporter's site scratchpad, Editing DocLists, Restyling PerlMonks.
  • If I'm running against an open door here, but still think that it's a wall section that should be made into a door, than at least for this monk, it was _not_ visisble in the tutorial... . Turn what I mis-perceive into a tutorial quest entry?

jdporter -- re: tutorial quest - some more small fries

To be possibly added to Debugging and Optimization:

Please do add the RFC links as well, I think adding a comment is valuable as this allows the tip to be visible w/o requiring immediate change of the FAQ/tutorial by its author or sitedocclan; also allowing feedback and maturing. And I like the way toolic's debugging offers nodes for both.

Note I probably duplicate some already listed entries either as note for myself, but sometimes also differently lists, esp. when I can add the meta/rfc links or 'this is commentable thread' vs 'readonly', also note that I neglected to do this for advanced topics like Debugging Perl scripts which use fork() or Common Causes for "Modification of a read-only value attempted"; if these are included, they should go after say an <hr>).

I guess non-sitedocclan shouldn't comment in the tutorial section directly?

In the end I'd love to just copy/paste in a comment for obvious incomplete debugging questions in SoPW in case of xp < 20:


Please see [Debugging and Optimization] and update your post afterwards ;)

This would ensure that us commenters don't neglect to mention the debugging basic, but it also has enough pointers and keywords to get the opener started to fixing or giving more detail. Allowing monks to just post a link, but still providing a most terse, but useful and sufficiently complete RTFM+Pointer style comment, I hope...


Starting points

More specialized topics

  • (debugging and fork, upto strace -f -efile...)

All Tutorials.


Footnotes:
  • see ... for submitting questions.

    5 second sermon: condense and run, then paste, using <code>...</code> and possibly <readmore>...</readmore>. Test your pasted and condensed test input/output to be still valid, otherwise fall back to an external download link in case of paste/charset-encoding issues. Ensure that all of your example code, input and output are current both on your side as well as in the posted version.


which is NOT yet another tutorial, but rather slighly extending the current version of Debugging and Optimization in situ, which in plain texti currently is just this:


    * Benchmarking Your Code by turnstep
    * Profiling your code. by kyle
    * Debugging Perl scripts which use fork() by IlyaM
    * Common Causes for "Modification of a read-only value attempted" by imp
    * Basic debugging checklist by toolic

which I think suitable in size for a starting point to give to beginning users of perl. But it lacks links to feedback/comment threads for stuff not yet incorporated into the referenced faqs by Pedagogues (and feedback should be discussed and eyeballed by other monks before incorpating it!). And it maybe also lacks a very small bit of context, which currently must be provided each time when pointing someone to this page. Providing this context each and every time is repetitive, and I really don't trust myself to not miss or vary half of the context each time I'd paste a link to Debugging and Optimization

This request of course would be unnecessary, if such a SMALL Debugging Link List already exists for linking to in a comment. (but I didn't find one. I'd argue that a central SHORT resource such as this is better than a ton of personal ones, where e.g. I'm bound to miss half of the suitable nodes and fail to keep my own version suitably uptodate)

wrt small fries - that just refers to my remark in a thread a few days ago, where I wondered about what node to link when commenting debug-style beginner questions, which you added to the tutorial quest (thanx, btw). My suggestion here is just an attempt to make my small fry suggestion a bit more specific (and I've chosen plural, as I've extended it to include the RFC-links for each for the referenced tutorials)

Thanx for checking,
Peter





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