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Re^2: How many man-hours would you estimate you have invested in learning Perl?

by Ratazong (Monsignor)
on Apr 04, 2013 at 13:50 UTC ( #1026990=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

in reply to Re: How many man-hours would you estimate you have invested in learning Perl?
in thread How many man-hours would you estimate you have invested in learning Perl?

Hi pemungkah!

Calm down. It's just a joke. You may not think its funny, and that it is politically incorrect. But having this option is in no way implying that perlmonks is supporting racism or genderism.

Look at some of the other options. They also make fun on certain social groups. E.g.

  • Thanks to Scalosian water ...: What a mean play on people who think that Star Trek is reality ... we should be ashamed!
  • ... so I get the maximum return on my investment: Looking at many postings here, people who only want to learn as few perl possible, in order to maximize their ROI, are not treated with respect at all
  • More time than I've spent learning basic social skills: It is so easy to mock nerds. And so mean, because they never take revenge.
In fact, there is no option a normal monk can chose, without being insulted being obsessive (last answer), snobbish (5th answer) or a noob (4th answer). If you judge perlmonks by just this poll, obviously no-one is welcome (except possibly bots).

So please don't take this poll seriously, and don't get enraged by that option. I don't see the need of a some-monks-are-discriminated-because-of-their-gender-we-need-to-end-this-discussion.

So long and have fun!

Rata (who likes that poll)

  • Comment on Re^2: How many man-hours would you estimate you have invested in learning Perl?

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Re^3: How many man-hours would you estimate you have invested in learning Perl?
by tinita (Parson) on Apr 04, 2013 at 15:20 UTC
    it's one of those seemingly harmless jokes we're confronted with regularly. I see a big difference to the other options. I don't have any problem with the "social skills" option.
    and it goes one level further - it's not "only" discriminating women, but it's discriminating those who complain about discrimination by pretending that all feminists are aggressive. especially after the incident where a woman heard a bad joke in a conference audience and put a photo of the guys on twitter (which I think was a really bad idea).

    just like I don't generalize men all being sexist, I don't want feminists being generalized as aggressive.

    like it was said in a similar discussion months ago, it's also about context. in a group of friends this might be funny because you know how it was meant.
      Just so. And this is one of the primary reasons why I don't hang out in communities like this very much, and is the reason why I don't attend developer conferences. Every step I take in that world is a reminder of why I'm not welcome.
        that's a pity. :-/
        I have to say that my personal experience at YAPCs and perl workshops is very good; I even was member of the orga team for the first time recently. We added a short policy against discrimination and harassment to our call for participation. I would like to encourage you to participate in conferences, and in case of an issue, talk to the orga team or the person in question; maybe that's the best way to make the right people aware of the problem. =)
        Please don't take this community as an example. There seem to be some people who make bad jokes (possibly unintended), and unfortunately a number of machos who take part in such discussions and use all means to discredit anybody who is complaining. This is easy because it's anonmyous.
        I guess at conferences this is better. If those people are attending (what I doubt), then at least they usually don't dare to say aloud what they've written here.

        Every step I take in that world is a reminder of why I'm not welcome.

        Try skipping :)

        Being oversensitive surely feels that way. I'll tell you a secret, we all feel not welcome at times. Some of us did not find an organization to amplify and return the feeling yet though.

        Enoch was right!
        Enjoy the last years of Rome.

      I just popped up to say "Hello!"
      I'll soon return back down below
      I came to further my agenda
      That single issue you'll remember
      My raison d'etre for contributions
      No questions to ask nor proffered solutions
      No molehills flattened just mountains raised
      My PC issue for which I must be praised
      My single issue to disturb the peace
      The issue that gives my life its lease
      And now I've done my duty clear
      That's it. I'm out of here
        Huh. Emotional invalidation. It's pretty sad that you think I base what I think about myself on your opinion. Yes, it does make me a little angry - being spat on does that - but I'm more filled with pity at your inability to deal with someone being different from you. Work on those empathy skills. You don't seem to have any.
Re^3: How many man-hours would you estimate you have invested in learning Perl?
by chromatic (Archbishop) on Apr 04, 2013 at 16:26 UTC

    Edit: What was here was a cruel and specific piece of satire that's served its purpose.

    In short: if you were reminded almost every day that you're not quite like everyone else here and if that difference were the focus of countless jokes, you might get tired of feeling singled out all the time. It's not about just one joke. It's about a culture that can't seem to stop focusing on the irrelevant things that make you different instead of the common things that the community is, ostensibly, about.

      Update: Why the downvotes? Can't you take a JOKE?
      Maybe it's because people are sick of you spouting the same who-little-old-me, tendentious, tiresome bullshit year after year.

      EDIT: here's the original comment, which chromatic deleted

      Calm down. It's just a joke.

      I don't know you and I don't know anything about you, but I do know this: you don't belong on PerlMonks because of some characteristic that has nothing to do with your programming ability. You aren't intelligent enough. Your brain doesn't work the right way. Your skin color is just a little bit wrong. Some aspect of your biology isn't the same as mine. You don't share every opinion I do. The only reason we keep you around is so we can point and laugh at how pathetic you and the people like you are. You'll never be good at programming. We snicker and roll our eyes every time you say something. It's cute, the way you think you can fit in.

      I'm going to give you subtle reminders of this as often as I can, because it's hiliarious.

      Hey everyone, look at the Ratazong! There's a Ratazong in the room! Maybe it can prove it's really a Ratazong, and not merely a tagalong for a real programmer who really belongs in here.

      Ha ha.


      What's that? You don't like hearing this? Cry me a river, you faker. It's just a joke. Why don't you grow up? If you can't handle a little ribbing every time you come around, you've just proved that you and people like you who aren't exactly like me don't belong here. We don't care about your feelings because you're the representative of everyone like you, and if you dare to tell us you might disagree, that just proves that you'll never, ever, never ever hack it as one of us.

        You are right, it was too much. But let us try to see the parable that he was trying to illustrate, even if it was done badly. Would we be treating Ratazong equally if any of the ridicule and exclusion the original post spoke of were allowed to happen? We would not be. It would be wrong. It would be counter to what I believe the spirit of Perl to be.

        If we treat classes of people like this, then we're not doing what many people are trying to do for the Perl community: make it more inclusive, make it more welcoming, listen; try to find consensus; change if change is needed, be compassionate if no change is possible.

        Manifestos and conference codes of conduct are great; we should have them. But what we really need to do is live according to them. Or, if that's not possible, claim our rebellion by name, and say, "no, I believe you are asking too much," and engage to try to fix what we see as a problem.

        I commented here because I felt that the unwritten, unspoken tenets of Perlmonks have begun to increasingly demand too much acquiescence to microagressions of many kinds (not only gendered but cultural as well), and I wanted to establish that I (and as we have seen, others) felt that these unwritten laws needed to be looked at.

        He's not perfect, certainly, but think of it this way: Would you expect Larry to nod approvingly if the kind of stuff that's been said in this thread were said in front of him? Would you be proud to walk up to Larry at YAPC or OSCON and say "I called someone a beliigerent two faced cancerous asshole on Perlmonks today!"? (Search the thread, it's a quote.)

        Do you think he'd say, "I am so glad you're associating that kind of thing with the language I've worked on for years. Good job."? Or do you think he'd be more likely to look at you and say, "I don't think that was right."?

Re^3: How many man-hours would you estimate you have invested in learning Perl?
by pemungkah (Priest) on Apr 04, 2013 at 18:29 UTC
    Yeah, telling an African-American "bet you like fried chicken and watermelon" or saying "you're Asian, can you do my math homework?" is just a joke too.

    The other jokes do not take advantage of privilege. This one does.

      Q: How many psychologists does take to change a lightbulb?
      A: Just one, but the lightbulb has to really want to change.

      Q: How many capitalists does it take to change a lightbulb?
      A: Three. One to develop a marketing plan for the event. One to hire the underpaid schlep they'll exploit to actually do the work. One to sell tickets.

      Q: How many radical feminists does it take to.....

        Good to see you trying to branch out from poetry, as I don't think you have a lot of future there. However, you're off to a bit of a rocky start with your new comedy routine. You need more original material, and the build isn't good - you start with familiar material, which is okay for a beginner - trying to create that important connection to the audience, good to see you've got that instinct - but your second joke unfortunately doesn't have much of a point, so the energy curve doesn't move upward, meaning the third joke doesn't have the strong support it needs, given that you're taking that leap into insult comedy. The second joke needs to be a really solid one to make sure that the audience is on your side before taking quite so extreme a step. Go back and think about your material - do you have a stronger joke that can go in there, perhaps a longer bit that will get the audience on your side?

        As far as current trends in comedy go - most standup isn't the old-school one-liner/two-liner material anymore; you may be more suited to a style more like Louis CK, where he uses his own flaws as the basis for his comedy. You certainly seem to have material to work with there. I suggest hitting more comedy clubs to get a better idea of what's current, and you might want to try some local improv classes; those will sharpen your real-time skills and give you less-risky experience in front of an audience. Would still recommend a flak jacket and head protection, maybe even a getaway car with the current material.

        If you feel you're ready for it, open-mic nights will let you try out material to see what kind of reaction you'll get. Again, body armor is still likely a consideration, so you'll definitely not want to go with the tux; I think you'll need to go informal. Hawaiian shirts go reasonably well with Kevlar.

        Finally, most comedy clubs don't accept anonymous performers, so you'll need to consider that as well. The Unknown Comic did that one in the 70's (80's?), so you'll need a new angle. Maybe you can do an Anonymous-On-Stage bit. That will definitely take some work, but you can work the socially-backward nerd angle better with that.

        Best of luck in your new gig.

        Oh wait, were you trying to insult me? My mistake! Sorry!

Re^3: How many man-hours would you estimate you have invested in learning Perl?
by aaron_teejay_trevena on Apr 09, 2013 at 09:56 UTC
    "it's just a joke", yeah right - that's crap. Why don't I just make some jokes about "niggers and watermelons" and we can all have a good laugh, I mean we don't need yet another discussion about racism or anything. Bullshit.

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