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The ONE way of the Web Page

by mdupont (Scribe)
on Nov 01, 2001 at 01:52 UTC ( #122442=perlmeditation: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??

Oh Monks, I have long meditated on the zen of the eval and the code block and found the falsness of being, the shell of the reality and the illusion of self. I have long pondered the meaning of the if and the true zen of it all.

I have refrained from posting my illusions to you, and have seen them as such, I have long thought about the meaning of the print statment and I have found it out!

Perlmonks, your Time is running out! Every day we are collecting points and xp, and every day we are getting older and life is not getting better because of our XP!

We have to transend the pure XP Greed, and rise above our mere beings, and see the real meaning of it all.

It is very hard when pressed with the horror of the 11 of september to talk about sitting under a bohdi tree and meditation on the illusion of reality, we have real problems here at hand.

One of the biggest XP monsters is windows XP, and I mean it. We will all register with the XP police and have them control our computers. Pretty soon we will all be running webservices and be .NET compliant. And we wont ever remember the days when we could have made a difference.

Why is it that people love visual basic versus perl? Because VB gives you the one WAY to do things, the microsoft way. You can create you web sites this one way and all things will work, well in perl you have many ways. there are many ways to create a web page, to talk to a database to register a user and to create a database table.

We are plagued by the many way because our energy is diverted into many areas, it is weakend by the lost effort in supporting many different ways of doing things.

Here is my challenge to all you perl monks, gurus and wizards :

What is the ONE BEST way to query a database table and display it as a web page?

What is the ONE BEST way to identify a user?

What is the ONE BEST way to create a web page? from the database that was connected to from the users id

What is the ONE BEST way to edit a database record? from the web page that was queried from the database and displayed as html

What is the ONE BEST way to query a database? and build the query using funky QBE stuff

We need solid recommendations from all the perl monks, we need to have a path for the weak and the unexperienced so that they will not go the dark path of the XP.

Please tell me your best knowledge and experience so that we may make a perl web server distribution to show people that perl can also support the ONE WAY as well as the many.

Mdupont

Comment on The ONE way of the Web Page
Re: The ONE way of the Web Page
by chromatic (Archbishop) on Nov 01, 2001 at 02:12 UTC
    *sigh*
    1. With SQL and HTML
    2. Biometrics, though nametags help, if you can convince them to wear them
    3. Following the XHTML specification
    4. Figure out what you need to change, then ask the database to change it
    5. Preface all of your SQL with "*- mother may i -*"
    Not really helpful? That's okay. You didn't say what problem you were trying to solve.

    The moral of the story: there is more than one way to do things because there is more than one thing to do. You either live with that ambiguity, or you spend the rest of your life trying to fit every problem to your ONE BEST solution.

    Update: ... and that's why exploring other languages, paradigms (functional, imperative), and even design techniques (UML, design patterns, use cases) is important.

Re: The ONE way of the Web Page
by Masem (Monsignor) on Nov 01, 2001 at 02:15 UTC
    Quoteth:
    What is the ONE BEST way to query a database table and display it as a web page?
    What is the ONE BEST way to identify a user?
    What is the ONE BEST way to create a web page?
    What is the ONE BEST way to edit a database record?
    What is the ONE BEST way to query a database?
    And I respond:
    There is no best way for any of these.
    For every situation, there is a better way than most to accomplish a task. However, what works best in situation A may not work best in situation B.

    Differences in hardware (CPU model) is a start , as some software isn't available for all builds as of yet. Then you need to think about the OS and/or distribution vendor, as some tools work better on some CPUs than others. Then you need to worry about versions of those installed tools. What may be a great solution in a 1.0 version may be the worst solution in a 1.1 version due to changes in the tool backends.

    Then you have differences in policy that might be set at the upper levels. Maybe you need to develop a solution that works with all other developers, thus limiting tools that might be guru's dreams that are also newbie's nightmares. Maybe you have to use very specific tools that are set by company security or policy, such as a specific version of perl or modules as have been cleared by an IT auditing team. And of course there is the structure of the team that is designing the program; does code separation from display have to be done to allow the graphic artists a stab?

    And then there's personal preference. If monk A used tool Y for years, and monk B used tool Z (that does the same thing as Y) for years, there's no way that A and B will concur on the best tool.

    In other words, we cannot even begin to recommend the BEST way to do something. We can say which solutions are *stupid* (such as reinventing CGI.pm), and we can offer *numerous* possible solutions, but it's up to the asker to evaluate those solutions and decide which is the best way in the asker's environment to proceed.

    Computer programming is another form of engineering. There is no right or wrong answers. A good engineer knows how to think about all the possible solutions and evalute the one that works best.

    -----------------------------------------------------
    Dr. Michael K. Neylon - mneylon-pm@masemware.com || "You've left the lens cap of your mind on again, Pinky" - The Brain
    "I can see my house from here!"
    It's not what you know, but knowing how to find it if you don't know that's important

      Dear Fellow Monks, From your responses is time for me to be alot more humble! I therefor put my foot in my mouth, and admit what I really want to ask is :

      Dear fellow perlmonks,

      I am cosidering putting a couple of queries and table edits on our corporate intranet web page and would like to use apache/perl and DBI DBD::Sybase running on solaris or debian.

      I am confused by all of the competing Modules that offer variying degrees of flexability. I am lost at the multitude of choices.

      Has anyone any experience with any or all of them? can the perlmonks recommend anyone of them?

      The real question is for me, what is the best place to start building a simple query application where I can reuse all of these nice html tools and still have a place to grow into?

      A query builder like MSAccess with a datatable is what I am thinking about, or even a HTML isql window....

      Yours truly,

      mIke

        Now this is a real question, and it should be in Seekers of Perl Wisdom. However, here is a brief opinion:

        None of the tools you mention here are widely used. That doesn't mean they stink, but it does mean they are either too new or not generally useful enough to have attracted many followers.

        One friend of mine did try DBIx::Abstract, and liked it, but in general I think the most efficient way to build a simple query application is the most obvious: use CGI and DBI. SQL isn't hard, and I generally find it much easier to write it directly than to use any of the abstraction layers I've tried. CGI is dirt simple, and it's easy to add in templating if you want to, with a popular module like Template Toolkit or HTML::Template.

        If these really seem too low-level to you, I would suggest you post your question in Seekers of Perl Wisdom, and phrase it along the lines of "What's a good high-level tool for quickly building simple database editing apps?"

Re: The ONE way of the Web Page
by slayven (Pilgrim) on Nov 01, 2001 at 02:53 UTC
    don't fear the dark side of XP, brother!
    they do have a solution for a lot of problems and they know how to teach their solution. but seldom they have the best solution because as Masem mentioned: there is no best solution.

    you asked for recommendations and experiences. so here's mine:
    don't teach one way but teach how to think about a problem and teach to face the environment. teach to be flexible cos the environment will change and so will the demanded features. endmost you need then is a best way for the problem you had before the change.

    the keys for solving problems is knowlegde and experience. providing the one best way doesn't support any them.

    --slayven
Re: The ONE way of the Web Page
by footpad (Monsignor) on Nov 01, 2001 at 10:44 UTC

    Vague humor alert....

    Real monks don't sweat the eXPerience points

    Real monks eXPerience OS's that don't need to phone home to Mommy for permission to run.

    Real monks buy processors from companies that give their contractors a real business eXPerience, instead of the legal shaft.

    You are correct about the impact of the terrorist attacks and the evolving threat biohazard threat. However, no one knows when it's time. Plan for the future, but make sure you're prepared in case your plans are, um, preempted.

    What is the ONE BEST way to query a database table and display it as a web page?

    Why the one that best solves the problem at hand, of course. There are many possible approaches. Have you experimented with them?

    What is the ONE BEST way to identify a user?

    By that which make him unique in the given context. Oh, yes, SSL helps, too.

    What is the ONE BEST way to create a web page?

    By hand rolling it from scratch. Only then will you know precisely what's included and what may be making it slow to load. Of course, it helps to understand the basics first.

    What is the ONE BEST way to edit a database record?

    Local or remote? Using deprecated syntax or "gee whiz"? Using that which the experienced use or others?

    What is the ONE BEST way to query a database?

    Well, I find being polite helps. And gentlemanly. (You'd be surprised how sensitive many dbo's are about their age.) Oh, you want a slightly less than facetious answer? Fine: SQL--if you must have ONE WAY.

    In the end, there can be more than one way to do it. IT may be slightly messy, but so is Perl. Such is life. Enjoy.

    --f

Re (tilly) 1: The ONE way of the Web Page
by tilly (Archbishop) on Nov 01, 2001 at 10:55 UTC
    When there is only ONE CHOICE for believing, we call that fundamentalism.

    When there is only ONE CHOICE for employment, we call that communism.

    When there is only ONE CHOICE for politics, we call that fascism.

    When there is only ONE CHOICE for software, we call that Microsoft.

    Just a little food for thought...

Re: The ONE way of the Web Page
by ajt (Prior) on Nov 01, 2001 at 14:26 UTC
    While I agree with all the comments presented, the problem is that large companies sow the seeds of FUD constantly. Micro$oft is not alone in rubbishing their competition.

    Busy non-technical managers are constantly bombarded with corporate propaganda, and they see the argument that company X makes OS Y, which works well with application Z. If it's all the same company it must work better!

    I've just convinced my managment team to go with a Linux/mySQL/Apache/mod_Perl/mod_PHP web solution, that I'll custom write for them. The arguments have not been technical at all, but it's been a case of using FUD against the original NT/MS-SQL/IIS/ASP model.

    While there is no ONE way, at the same time we can't stand around pontificating TMTOWTDI, while the industry "ONE WAY" monsters flatten us. While we may have won the tecnhical arguments, MS et al still have the hearts and minds of most corporate managment teams.

    Thus even though there is no one way, we must at least sing from the same hymn sheet, even if we are singing different things!

    I don't know how to phrase this properly, but we have to project, as a user body, a united front with one corporate voice. Even though we do things differently we must strees our unity, that is to say that the more than one way is our one way!

    Our detractors see "more than one way" as our great weakness, we have to win the management argument that this is our strength. We can't use tecnhological arguments, you should see their eyes glaze over, we have to win on the home territory of the enemy, we need to win in the board rooms of corporations, not the operations room.

    My very humble 2p.

      AJT has hit the nail on the head, I think that he has put things into context. The question is : are we all pulling in the same direction in a coherent way? With a set of recommended modules and ways of doing things this convincing work will become much easier. Mike
      I still don't understand this. I've worked at a company where there was one way to do things. The CIO made lithographic announcements from on high. He was no Moses. One group of programmers was competing with Microsoft with an enterprise product, and they were forced to use the Microsoft product. So I have a bias against "ONE WAY" proponents.

      You'll also notice I left that company a year and a half ago. Send money.

      The point is, the kinds of people who think there is only one way to do things are going to do things that way. In the 70s, that was mainframe computing. In the 80s, some of them used LISP machines. In the 90s, lots of them hired MCSEs and used NT on servers. Others invested heavily in Java everywhere.

      I'm not interested in working for a company that won't allow me to consider the alternatives and find the best option for the situation. (send money) I'm not really interested in evangelising those kinds of managers, either. You're welcome to try, but I haven't found them terribly receptive.

Re: The ONE way of the Web Page
by buckaduck (Chaplain) on Nov 01, 2001 at 18:49 UTC
    All right, I think a lot of people are taking this question way too seriously. If you just want personal opinions for general situations, here's what this lowly monk typically does:

    What is the ONE BEST way to query a database table and display it as a web page?

    The Data::Table module:

    use DBI; use CGI ':standard'; use Data::Table; use strict; my $dbh = DBI->connect(...); my $table = Data::Table::FromSQL( $dbh, "select * from mytable where myfield = ?", 'whatever'); print header, start_html('Results'), $table->html;

    What is the ONE BEST way to identify a user?

    Prompt for a user name and authenticate with a passsword if necessary. Or if you just want to guess at a userid, then you can look at the contents of the variable $< (see perlvar).

    What is the ONE BEST way to create a web page?

    The vim text editor.

    Oh, you mean from within a Perl program? You can still write raw HTML code in a Perl program.

    Or you could use the CGI module as I did earlier. I'll admit that this is what I typically do for dynamic web pages.

    I'll also admit that when I'm creating tables I'll use the Data::Table or HTML::Table modules.

    What is the ONE BEST way to edit a database record?

    Assuming that you can use SQL, use it. Preferably via a DBI-like module:

    $dbh->do("update table set blah = 'foo' where flurb = 'fleem'");

    What is the ONE BEST way to query a database?

    This is one I refuse to touch. It depends on what you're doing with the results. Querying is always pretty easy. It's using the results that can be tricky...

    buckaduck

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