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perlmonks too slow

by Jaap (Curate)
on Sep 13, 2002 at 13:03 UTC ( #197544=monkdiscuss: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??

First of all, i love this site.
But it is terribly s l o w.
On average i would say it takes about five (5) seconds for a page to display, where an average page on the internet would take 0.5 secs.

Please make it faster. Way faster.

Comment on perlmonks too slow
Re: perlmonks too slow
by RMGir (Prior) on Sep 13, 2002 at 13:07 UTC
    I think you were looking for the Offering Plate instead of Discussions. :)

    Not that I've tossed any money on there myself, but I'm not expecting them to put on more hardware for me, either.
    --
    Mike

Re: perlmonks too slow
by Preceptor (Chaplain) on Sep 13, 2002 at 13:08 UTC
    Not a problem. All that's required is that you click here and type in some numbers. I'm sure they'd be happy to upgrade the server if the numbers were big enough...
    --
    It's not pessimism if there is a worse option, it's not paranoia when they are and it's not cynicism when you're right.
Re: perlmonks too slow
by Jaap (Curate) on Sep 13, 2002 at 13:12 UTC
    Well, if that is what it takes, i will donate what i can. But as i understand, MAJOR speed improvements can be made with small changes. The sitewoner told me that much of the traffic is cause by people reloading to refresh the chatterbox...

    I am serious about his speed thing. I want to help if needed.
      MAJOR speed improvements can be mase with small changes.

      Go for it.

Re: perlmonks too slow
by talexb (Canon) on Sep 13, 2002 at 13:21 UTC
    Hi Jaap,

    I --'ed your node because you present a problem without any indication that you are familiar with the background behind the current setup of the site.

    A better way to phrase your query would be to ask about the current setup (as I understand it, two dedicated web servers talking to a single database server, web site engine by Everything2 -- see bottom of page).

    Doubtless it could be made a little faster by adding more web servers or beefing up the database box (I don't know where the current bottlenecks are) but considering that good old pair Networks is providing the hosting (at some reduced price), we've probably got as much horsepower as we're going to get.

    And I imagine that the open source code on which the site is based has been gone over by a number of fanatical programmers and is pretty efficient.

    So apart from shelling out some $$$ (as previous respondents have indicated) I'm not sure what else can be done to speed the site up.

    --t. alex
    but my friends call me T.

    Update: I understand that the 'Refresh' problem is one that eats up horsepower and bandwidth -- but I don't think there's a way to prevent it. Once one gets used to Perl Monks, you should never have to refresh your browser -- everything's a link or a button away.

      It takes a while for most new Monks to find out about one of the CB clients: perhaps an entry in one of the starter nodes in Tutorials#monkstart would be a step in the right direction?

      rdfield

        <toot>I like to think my node about Perl as a coffee house explains the position well .. instead of posting right off the bat, hang out for a while and get the lay of the land. Then, when you think you know what you're talking about, ask a question.</toot>

        And I'm reminded of an on-line community I belonged to in the past (don't think it was Perl Monks) where one of the members said that, being from Texas, the following was important when disagreeing with some one:

          Be sure that your words are soft and sweet, on the off chance that you have to eat them.
        Words to live by.

        --t. alex
        but my friends call me T.

Re: perlmonks too slow
by Jaap (Curate) on Sep 13, 2002 at 14:12 UTC
    Well, it is obviously 'not done' to complain about perlmonks.org but besides that, the site really is very slow which might be a reason for me not to come here very often. I do not completely understand why it is a bad thing for me to make that public.

    What i expected is really people saying things like 'i do/don't find it slow (too)' or 'you could donate 754 USD so we can buy a new webserver' or 'we are searching for a mirror in uzbekistan' or anything like that.

      If 5 seconds is such a problem for you, then go to user settings and select the "All Nodelets Off" option and it will only take about 2 seconds (based on my testing) per page.

      Voting is a bit of a fickle thing. It is easy for people to be put off by you criticizing the site without demonstrating (in your original node) any understanding of how the site is implemented, its history, how it is administered, etc.

      You don't mention that you realize that you aren't paying anything for the benefit you get from this site and you don't acknowledge that those who would have to make it faster do all of their work without being paid a penny for it. And then you casually say just "Make it way faster". Yep, I can see how many could be a little put off by that.

      And the nature of the voting system is such that if you write something that will make a small impression on a large number of people, then you get a large number of votes. So you didn't do anything horrible, but you might get quite a few downvotes because of it. But checking, I see that your root nood currently has a rep of -2! How do you jump from such a slightly low rep to "Well, it is obviously 'not done' to complain"??

      But as i understand, MAJOR speed improvements can be mase with small changes.

      Yes, and we have tons of these simple, huge speed changes sitting around but we haven't put any of them into effect because it never occurred to us to do so. Thanks for pointing out that we should just make a simple change to cause the site to be "way faster".</sarcasm> (: Do you assume we are just completely imcompetent? If it were trivial to make the site lots faster, we probably would have already done so.

      We actually have made quite a few changes to make the site faster. Of course, these don't always keep up with the increasing popularity of the site. We have quite a few more changes that should help make the site faster as well. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of free time to work on finishing these changes with working the job that pays to feed my family and trying to help raise my children. The situation is much the same for the others that volunteer to work on this site.

      I enjoy working on this site, but I really can't spend much time doing it (I wish I could spend more). If you seriously think you can make a big difference in the speed of the site, then you'll have to do a whole lot of research without taking up other peoples' times with lots of questions if you hope to save "us" more time than you consume. I encourage you to do that. The source code for the basis for this site is just three mouse clicks away right now.

              - tye (but my friends call me "Tye")
Re: perlmonks too slow
by ignatz (Vicar) on Sep 13, 2002 at 14:31 UTC
    Thank you for contacting Perl Monks 24 hour support. In order for our crack staff of technicians to better serve you, we will need some additional information about your system. Could you please provide us with the following:
    • Location
    • Operating System (Windows, Linux, Apple, OS2, AIX, etc.)
    • Browser (Internet Explorer, Mozilla, AOL, Opera, Lynx, etc.)
    • Connection speed (Modem, DSL, Cable, Carrier Pidgeon, etc.)
    Might I also recommend our Gold Level Support . While Perl Monks does everything it can to give you the best possible service, our Gold Level Support insures that you will have a dedicated technician to address your needs.

    And once again, thank you for using Perl Monks!

    ()-()
     \"/
      `                                                     
    
Re: perlmonks too slow
by zentara (Archbishop) on Sep 13, 2002 at 16:43 UTC
    1. Turn off images. 2. Use Perlmonks during off-hours. 3. Sunday mornings are good.
Re: perlmonks too slow
by rbc (Curate) on Sep 13, 2002 at 17:19 UTC
    Well maybe the web pages load slowly.
    But this has to be the fastest "Get me the
    answer now site I have ever seen!"

    Perlmonks rocks! Where can I buy a T-shirt?
Re: perlmonks too slow
by vladb (Vicar) on Sep 13, 2002 at 18:15 UTC
    Please make it faster. Way faster.

    How about you get a head start on it? Seriously, though, what you had just said sounds way perplexing. I'm sure you have already received a fair share of responce on your initial post and my attempt to add a drop in the bucket wouldn't prove to be of any significance. However, I too couldn't stand by the wayside...

    To summarize, some of the options available to you in order for you to be able to see a successful resolution to your inquest are..
    1. Learn the Everything engine. Literally everything you see around the monastery runs on the Everything engine. I've looked at the source code and it is by far one of the best code I'd ever seen in my career as a Perl programmer. For one, I know I couldn't have written any better. Once you've learned the trade, spend some time hacking away at a solution. And as soon as you notice anything viable, let the rest of the community know. If proven worthwhile, I'm sure the gods will amend the way monastery runs (in the back-end).

    2. Donate as much as you possibly can. This will help the gods to invest in better hardware to run their monastery on. This is by far the simplest solution, yet comes at a cost, not surprisingly :). However, if you seem to value your time more than the total sum you could dedicate towards the offerring plate, then by all means consider this option.


    This is rather simple, afterall, eh? :)

    _____________________
    # Under Construction
Re: perlmonks too slow
by talexb (Canon) on Sep 13, 2002 at 19:18 UTC
      Please make it faster. Way faster.

    I'm reminded of a sales prospect from hell that I had a few months back.

    He turns from looking at my portfolio of web sites, puts it down and says, "The problem with all the web sites out there .." (I lean forward, expecting to hear something profound) ".. is that they all suck. Build me a web site that doesn't suck. And can you make it so that the web site comes out at the top of the list on all of the search engines?"

    Well, gee, all you had to do was ask.

    All that to say (or reiterate, as it seems you've touched a nerve here today), this site hasn't been built to be slow. That's not an undocumented feature. Behind the scenes there are a lot of things going on to keep the content up to date.

    If you are seriously interested in helping make Perl Monks faster, excellent!

    Now tell us what you can do to support this terrific on-line community.

    --t. alex
    but my friends call me T.

Re: perlmonks too slow
by sauoq (Abbot) on Sep 13, 2002 at 21:11 UTC

    Go to User Settings and turn off your own nodelets. That will help some.

    -sauoq
    "My two cents aren't worth a dime.";
    
Re: perlmonks too slow
by George_Sherston (Vicar) on Sep 13, 2002 at 23:37 UTC
    Congratulations! You are the one millionth person to complain that the monastery loads slowly! You receive this fine reproduction Empire style carriage clock!

    George Sherston
Re: perlmonks too slow
by PodMaster (Abbot) on Sep 14, 2002 at 00:54 UTC
    The other monks forgot one, so i'll tell you, change your CSS setting. Copy the stylesheet to your computer, and change the appropriate setting in user settings to point to it. That way the CSS isn't ever sent to you, and perlmonks loads faster. I think everybody should do this (in fact I think we shouldn't inline CSS by default anymore, but i guess we do it for backwards compatibility ~ damn).

    update: by the way, I --ed you cause your comment is ignorant at best (you made no mention of your connection speed or any kind of relevant concrete details~ how many bytes is an average page you download?).

    ____________________________________________________
    ** The Third rule of perl club is a statement of fact: pod is sexy.

Re: perlmonks too slow
by Aristotle (Chancellor) on Sep 14, 2002 at 05:48 UTC

    Must be your end too, Jaap, I get them (at least partially) in under three seconds - that's on an ISDN connection 13 hops away from the server (only one of them being any bottleneck at all). Try tracerouting and see if the problem ain't more on your end.

    Yes, the server does a fair deal of work for each page request, but I can't complain. Since the move about half a year ago PM isn't any slower than the rest of the web for me and the limited bandwidth I have. Get a 56k and you won't be so spoiled.. :^)

    Makeshifts last the longest.

Re: perlmonks too slow
by bart (Canon) on Sep 15, 2002 at 11:12 UTC
    On average i would say it takes about five (5) seconds for a page to display, where an average page on the internet would take 0.5 secs.
    Five seconds? I would think that's rather snappy, for this site (perlmonks.org). I regularily see response times of over half a minute per page.

    Whatever you may think of it, I can't see it as good publicity for the Everything system.

Re: perlmonks too slow
by BrowserUk (Pope) on Sep 15, 2002 at 12:25 UTC

    Assuming that there is little that can practically be done to speed up the engine to the site, is there anything practical that could be done in other areas?

    Given the large number of members (even if only the 'active' ones are considered), I for one would be more than happy to contribute a one-off $10 to a dedicated hardware fund if this would cut my waiting time for pages. If a (preferably dedicated) fund for faster hardware was established, it might be easily fulfilled.

    • Would the ISP agree to allow the new hardware to be used?
    • Would moving the existing codebase and database to new hardware be a reasonably simple transition?
    • Would a straight 1-4-1 replacement do any good? I don't know what the current hardware is, but if it was already a dual-2MHz set-up, it would require more than just a simple/ cheap hardware replacement.
    • Would it be possible, given the current software setup, to gain by adding a another box, rather than replacing one?
    • If adding boxes is possible and beneficial, what are the limits? There are probably more than a few Monks that have 'old boxes' lying around that they would be willing to donate to the cause if this was a viable solution.
    • Given the site already violates the taboo of frames (the <IFRAME> used by the advert), would it not be a reasonably simple process to modify the Chatterbox nodelet to sit in an <IFRAME> of its own, and have the whole CB laid off to a separate, dedicated box?

      Given that it is only transient data, it wouldn't have to access the DB (I think?) so could be a pretty much stand alone entity, and (so long as people use the talk button for refresh), would probably go a long way to relieving the CB related loads on the main server(s)?

    • Maybe there is some mileage in have a second database box. It could be a fall-over backup for the main DB server, and could be used to handle such things as the titlebar search box and super search pages. It could be trickled updates/ new content from the main server by a low priority process on the main DB.

      I realise that this means that these searches would possible miss on the very latest content. Would this be a disaster? If the current backup (to whatever medium) from the main DB were done as replicates to the backup server, the backup server could takeover the backup to tape/CD whatever.

    I also realise that I know nothing of the Everything engine nor the current hardware set-up, and that if these types of optimisations are to be considered, the first step would be to do the analysis to see what and where the bottlenecks in the system are.

    I currently have both the time and enthusiasm to take on some of this work if it was deemed desirable. Whilst I don't have the requisite skills in the Everything engine (nor probably Perl) to be let loose on the servers, if (for example) the logs were zipped up and made available to me, I do have the skills and the time to perform analysis of them. I could then return the results to tye or whomever for verification and further action.

    If there is any other way (beyond the obvious cash contributions) that would help in this particular regard, I'm all ears.


    Well It's better than the Abottoire, but Yorkshire!
Re: perlmonks too slow
by Jaap (Curate) on Sep 15, 2002 at 20:10 UTC
    Okay thank you all for your replies.
    Of course you are right when you say that this is a free site that answers Perl questions faster than any site.

    I realise that saying that major changes could be achieved very easily was stupid. What i meant was turning off the chatterbox but that would make the whole site less attractive.

    I do stand corrected and i do appreciate the insight you gave me.
    The tips on diabling nodelets and using my own css do help.
Re: perlmonks too slow
by nate (Monk) on Sep 17, 2002 at 14:33 UTC
    Greetings,

    On behalf of the Everything Development Company, the Everything Engine, the PerlMonks founders squad, and the International League to Insure Reasonable Website Response Times I sincerely apologize.

    The slowness of Perlmonks has nothing to do with resources available to us. The fine people at PAIR have given us much more hardware than we had to work with before, and have offered to get us more hardware if we need it.

    The problem isn't an infrastructure issue, however -- and speaking as one of the handful of people who've had a hand in developing the site's software: It's our own gosh-darn fault. Perlmonks is WAY more complex than when it originally launched. It does a crapload of perl evals and sql queries per page. It's vulnerable to resource hogs. Searching can cripple the database. And right now, I don't think we're gonna fix these problems any time soon.

    This has been a long standing issue with The other site as well -- and it seems like every site I've worked on has grown to the point where it uses it's max resources, until someone with a vested interest combs through the code and figures out a way to make it work a little bit faster for a while. Then it gets a little bit bigger and some other bottleneck pops up. It's not a matter of computer resources, as much as human engineering resources.

    Please don't be ungrateful to PAIR and the resources that they've already given us. Without their and YAPC's support this place probably wouldn't exist anymore. Right now, it's enough that it's up and it's functioning, even if it's a bit retarded at times.

    --Uncle nate

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