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Re: Yet Another Perl Object Model (Inside Out Objects)

by BrowserUk (Pope)
on Dec 15, 2002 at 02:12 UTC ( #219939=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

in reply to Yet Another Perl Object Model (Inside Out Objects)

A question: Why do you serialise objects?

By this I mean you specifically, as opposed to why does anyone?

Though the question is open to anyones specific use of serialisation of objects, so I guess the question I am really asking is under what circumstances have people used serialisation in the real world?

Why did they do it and what did they get from it?

Examine what is said, not who speaks.

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Re: Re: Yet Another Perl Object Model (Inside Out Objects)
by demerphq (Chancellor) on Dec 15, 2002 at 02:27 UTC
    Why do I serialize objects? I suppose because to certain extent I am a visual person. During the development phase of writing a module I usually dump out data structres and print tables of information. If a data structure is complex then seeing the ouput from a dumper can really help to see whats going (wr)on(g).

    Also, for more serious uses, persistancy is a not uncommon requirement and serialization can be the simplest way to achieve it. Config files are a simple (and sometime abused) example but better to look at something like MLDBM.

    And in my case, writing and breaking and fixing a number of different serialization modules (aka dumpers) has been both a hobby and an heavy duty course on perl esoterica. Some people do regexes or crazy ties, me I do dumpers. I hope to have a super duper improved version of Data::BFDump ready after the holidays. It should make dumping inside out objects a _lot_ easier.


    --- demerphq
    my friends call me, usually because I'm late....

      I probably should have waited for a few other to have responded to my question before replying, but it struck me that serialising objects from the outside is actually a rather strange requirement, and can only be done in perl because of the peculiar nature (relatively speaking) of the way OO is implemented in perl.

      In most OO languages, if serialisation is required, it is done by requesting the object to serialise itself and return that to the caller. Which is what I added to my version of the Quote class like this.

      sub toString{ my $self = shift; sprintf '[%s:' . '%s; 'x2 .'%s]', $self, $phrase{$self}, $author{$self}, $approved{$self}; }

      and to its super class QuotePlus like this:

      sub toString{ my $self = shift; sprintf '[%s:' . '%s;' x 1 . '%s]', $self, $date{$self}, $self->SUPER::toString(); }

      Of course, I haven't written the obverse fromString method yet, but I don't actually see the need for it. The toString method would be used mostly for debugging and perhaps for inclusion into error messages. I don't see me having a need to recreate instances of a class from their serialised form.

      I also added what I would see as a class method rather than an instance method, to dump all instance data for a class. For this I did use Data::Dumper like this.

      # QuotePlus (sub)class sub _dump{ warn "_dump should only be called as a class method.\nIe. QuotePlu +s::_dump()", and return if ref +shift; Data::Dumper->Dump( [ \%date ], [ 'date' ] ) . Quote::_dump(); } ... # Quote class ...sub _dump{ warn "_dump should only be called as a class method.\nIe. Quote::_ +dump()" and return if ref +shift; Data::Dumper->Dump( [ \%phrase, \%author, \%approved, ], [ qw/phrase author approved/ ] ); }

      Barring this from being called as an instance method makes sense to me as what is returned is class specific rather than instance specific.

      In terms of persistance, I'm torn between whether a class should know how to persist itself, of whether this should be done eternally, or by inheritance from a named class.

      It seems attractive at first to see this as a responsibility of the class itself, but then the persistance mechanism becomes fixed and requires modification of you change your database for example.

      I can see the merit in doing this from outside the class at the application level, in terms of "serialise & save" as this allows different applcations to use the same classes and different persistant storage.

      However, I see a problem with this in that if I have two subclasses of a base class and I want to persist all instances of one. Dumping one of the subclasses (via a class dump method) and saving it is going to also save instances of the base class that were created via the second subclass (if your using the Inside Out method).

      However, doing it one at a time through an instance method requires me to iterate over every instance I have created. Possibly safer, but painful none the less.

      The third method I see, is to have every class inherit (either directly or indirectly) from a Persistance class and it would provide each instance with a Persist method and a virtual class method PersistAll that a class could override to cause it to persist all of its instances. This allows the Persistance class to be swapped out for a new one whenever you change your storage medium, database etc.

      I note for the readers that I have done very little in way of OO in perl, and have never had to write this type of library classes in other OO languages, always having just made use of existing classes for these sort of things. I will say that I have always been disappointed in those I have used in Java, C++ and even my breif forays in SmallTalk many years ago.

      Examine what is said, not who speaks.

        To answer your original question:

        A question: Why do you serialise objects?

        Three reasons:

        1. Debugging - quick 'n' dirty view of the current objects state.
        2. Persistance
        3. Copying - soemtimes a quick freeze/thaw cycle is the simplest way

        As to your other comments, I tend towards having serialisation be the responsibility of the class, since it gives you more flexibility.

        This doesn't mean that you have to write a brittle serialisation method for each class - there is nothing stopping you using Storable within your classes freeze/thaw methods (note: "using" not "inheriting from" - inheritence is overrated :-)

        This gives you flexibility (you can change your serialisation method on a class by class basis if necessary) and simplicity (common functionality sits in the serialisation class).

        The "problem" with inside-out objects is that the "simple" case - dump all of the attributes - becomes hard. You can't just throw $self at Storable::freeze in your classes "freeze" routine.

        but it struck me that serialising objects from the outside is actually a rather strange requirement, and can only be done in perl because of the peculiar nature (relatively speaking) of the way OO is implemented in perl.

        Well I dont think its that weird. After all, dumping core is a form of serialization, and that is hardly an unusal activity on a computer. :-) Also many debuggers (im thinking the VB and VC debuggers, and ive seen many open source tools that do similar things) have the ability to show allocated structures in a visual way. So this task is not an uncommon one.

        However that aside I will grant to you that being able to dump data in such a straight forward way is a by product of both perls approach to variables and to OO.

        But I hardly think its a bad thing. For instance, assuming that a number of the more subtle problems in things like Data::Dumper and friends are either not an issue or resolved, dumping provides a simple portable way to inspect data structures iregardless of their origin. Also the use of the language itself to represent its data, while admitedly a potential security risk, has many advantages. It allows minimal understanding to read for the programmer, in fact it may even be enlightening in terms of understanding perls syntax to read the output of a Dumper, it means that no special tools are required to regenerate the object, and it means the generated file is as platform independent as perl is itself. Furthermore it can be used to facilitate code generators, which is a common design approach.

        Compare all this against objects serializing themselves on request. Lets say I throw together a composite data structure like a treap. Now im finished my implementation of the data structure and someone asks me to find a way to save the generated structure. In this case I have to write a whole bunch more code to both read and write it from disk. If I make an error in my implementation, (and as a beginner I just might do that), then things dont work out so well. Sure there are work arounds in other languages where Perls approach doesnt work but I'm guessing they arent as straight forward to implement and are subject to higher levels of programmer error.

        Ultimately I think that Dumper is one of Perls many form of Introspection. And in my experience the more intorspection available the easier my life as a programmer becomes. Especially when things start getting weird...

        --- demerphq
        my friends call me, usually because I'm late....

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[shmem]: trading perl for python is just like throwing away a big tool box, to be given a hammer, a gripper and a screwdriver instead
[choroba]: but they're shiny!
[shmem]: ...and, a plethora of tools built with hammer, gripper and screwdriver, I should say

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