in reply to Goodbye!
Intolerance has been discussed many times in PerlMonks. I think
it's very sad to see someone go because they feel mistreated
or unwelcome in any way. I don't care if that someone is
the most expert of Perl hackers or the newest newbie on the
block. PerlMonks is a community, and we should be willing to
welcome everyone, as long as they abide by some basic rules
of civility.
mt2k has been around PerlMonks.org for some time now (almost
the same time as myself, I just discovered). And yes, he can
be noisy and sometimes annoying, but I'm sure he has learned
a great deal about Perl by hanging out here (as we all have!),
and that's the first
step towards contributing valuable contents to a site like
this. We were all young and careless at some time, and some
people (at least in my case) cared enough to give us the
opportunity to show that we could mature and become valuable
members of a group.
I have never been personally offended by mt2k's questions
or attitude, but maybe someone else has. But we should learn
to resolve those differences among ourselves without anyone
feeling the need to leave.
That said, mt2k, there's also some opportunities you have
to forge for yourself. Show to everyone that you can actually
pull off what you announced a few
days ago, and you'll gain the respect of many people here.
Ok, enough rambling.
--ZZamboni
RE (2): Goodbye!
by tilly (Archbishop) on Aug 09, 2000 at 02:32 UTC
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Who do you mean by we?
Let me speak for myself. I showed up out of nowhere. I
tread on a few toes. I admit it. But I have tried to
be helpful and polite, I have an offer on my home node
for anyone who dislikes me. As I say there, I won't
repeat names of anyone who takes me up on it. I will
say that nobody has yet taken me up on it though.
Many (most?) people here have welcomed me. But I have
also watched in disbelief as I answer several questions
to the best of my ability and they get downgraded one
after the other. Which is why today no post of mine
appears in the list of best posts of the day...
(Please do not react to that by modding me up across the
board either. I don't particularly care if my rating
moves more slowly. I really would dislike being the
center of any more politics than is necessary. Besides
which, as long as whoever it is doing that keeps on
doing that, they cannot use their votes against someone
who actually would be bothered. :-)
The only reason that I am bringing this up is that I have
been told by several that I am far from the first person
that this has happened to. Please, if you think that my
posts do not make a positive contribution, /tell me in
person what specifically you object to. If you think it
warrants public discussion, then post your opinion as an
anonymous monk. A very good place to do that is in
response to this post.
But a small clique should not decide for everyone who
they do and do not want to be around, then organize an
effort to drive the unwanted people away. If I was the
only person this happened to, well that isn't a big deal,
there are jerks out there and I long ago learned to
accept that. In that case I would not want to inflame the
situation by posting this. But it appears that it is
far from just me, so I will.
Sincerely,
Ben
EDIT
Inside of an hour of posting the above I had been downmodded
across the board enough to lose several xp. Among the posts
that were hit was The path to mastery which I really doubt anyone
considered of particularly poor quality. But I cannot
honestly say that nobody has told me they were offended
by me because someone did, "Just so you can't say that
nobody told you that." I did not receive an explanation
though of exactly why this post caused offence... (In
truth I think it might have been a joke..) | [reply] [Watch: Dir/Any] |
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> Let me speak for myself.
This may be incredibly obvious but no one speaks for anyone here but themselves, even if they use the word "we" in their posts.
> I tread on a few toes...I have tried to be helpful and polite
I've seen the latter, I believe. You should stick with that one instead of the former. There seems to be a general community spirit of helpfulness here, and when someone acts contrary to that spirit, I've noticed that many individuals speak up in defense of the Monastery and its unwritten guidelines of behavior. (clarification: good, civil, community-oriented behavior)
> Many (most?) people here have welcomed me.
There are thousands of users. That's quite a welcome. I don't mean to be sarcastic, but you seem to use a lot of hyperbole in your post.
> But I have also watched in disbelief as I answer several questions to the best of my ability and they get downgraded one after the other.
I haven't read enough of your posts to know whether "to the best of my ability" is synonymous with "correct" and "the needed information". I don't know the tone of your posts either. So I'm not sure I could say that the reaction to your posts is unfair.
> Which is why today no post of mine appears in the list of best posts of the day...
Is that your goal?
> Please do not react to that by modding me up across the board either.
Okay. I haven't voted on this node because while I believe it is well-written, I also believe that it casts a lot of shadowy accusations. I don't like that as a precedent. Plus, even if I had real evidence that you'd been wronged, I still think that sympathy votes are just uncool.
> Besides which, as long as whoever it is doing that keeps on doing that, they cannot use their votes against someone who actually would be bothered. :-)
Some posts deserve a --. I haven't read yours, but it's possible that some of yours deserved to be downgraded. I've gotten -- votes before, sometimes for no reason, more often because there was something not right with my post. It would be more appropriate for the person who votes you down to tell you why, but they are free NOT to do so if they wish. You have the right to vote the way you want to. I doubt that there is one person that is out to use all his/her votes on you, anyway.
>The only reason that I am bringing this up is that I have been told by several that I am far from the first person that this has happened to.
Does "this" refer to receiving -- votes? Or receiving a whole horde of -- votes? If it's the latter, I'm curious as to why. You made some mention of being voluble in the chatterbox. Do you think that may be affecting your standing in the community?
> /tell me in person what specifically you object to. If you think it warrants public discussion, then post your opinion as an anonymous monk. A very good place to do that is in response to this post.
Sure. I think that you are not the center of anything here, though you have made an extraordinary number of posts in the very short time since you joined the community. I think you should cite facts instead of making ambiguous accusations about an organization of conspirators (q{But a small clique should not decide for everyone who they do and do not want to be around, then organize an effort to drive the unwanted people away.})
This is the first post of yours I have read. I replied instead of voting on it. I would be interested to hear your further impressions of the community, but with more specifics.
Thanks.
e-mail neshura
| [reply] [Watch: Dir/Any] |
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Let me speak for myself.
This may be incredibly obvious but no one speaks for anyone here but
themselves, even if they use the word "we" in their posts.
I meant as opposed to passing on the opinions I have been fed in private
by people ranging from bypassers to old and respected members. Or as
opposed to my opinions about other people who have shown up here.
I tread on a few toes...I have tried to be helpful and polite
I've seen the latter, I believe. You should stick with that one instead of
the former. There seems to be a general
community spirit of helpfulness here, and when someone acts contrary
to that spirit, I've noticed that many
individuals speak up in defense of the Monastery and its unwritten
guidelines of behavior. (clarification: good,
civil, community-oriented behavior)
Note that I did not intend to tread on some toes. I know I did. I indeed
try to be helpful and polite but I am letting people know that there have
indeed been things that I know could upset some.
Many (most?) people here have welcomed me.
There are thousands of users. That's quite a welcome. I don't mean to
be sarcastic, but you seem to use a lot of
hyperbole in your post.
Trust me, this was not intended as hyperbole. I know that many have
welcomed me because I see how many people privately tell me "thanks", and
I know how many private discussions I carry on. Plus when I posted the
above I saw multiple people's response in the chatterbox. In
addition I know a lot of people voted for posts of mine. Is that a sign
of welcome?
I do not, of course, know the majority opinion. Hence my question mark.
But certainly in terms of people talking to me I have had virtually all
positive feedback.
But I have also watched in disbelief as I answer several questions
to the best of my ability and they get
downgraded one after the other.
I haven't read enough of your posts to know whether "to the best of
my ability" is synonymous with "correct" and
"the needed information". I don't know the tone of your posts either.
So I'm not sure I could say that the reaction
to your posts is unfair.
Please do then and make up your own mind. I have received private
opinions from over a half-dozen people who thought it was unfair.
As an example, ask whether Simple Locking deserved to show up
(however briefly) on the worst nodes of the day:
Which is why today no post of mine appears in the list of best
posts of the day...
Is that your goal?
No, but for several days I consistently had 3-5 posts on that list and
I do not think my posts today are worse than my posts yesterday.
In other words I am stating how noticable the change is.
Please do not react to that by modding me up across the board either.
Okay. I haven't voted on this node because while I believe it
is well-written, I also believe that it casts a lot of
shadowy accusations. I don't like that as a precedent. Plus,
even if I had real evidence that you'd been wronged, I
still think that sympathy votes are just uncool.
That is close to how I feel. However I included this comment because I
had already /told 3 people that I wished they had not reacted that way.
It is far better for me to make my opinion clear once publically before
the fact than to tell it in private to everyone who tells me that they
already did it.
Besides which, as long as whoever it is doing that keeps on doing
that, they cannot use their votes against someone who actually
would be bothered. :-)
Some posts deserve a --. I haven't read yours, but it's possible
that some of yours deserved to be downgraded.
I've gotten -- votes before, sometimes for no reason, more often
because there was something not right with my
post. It would be more appropriate for the person who votes you
down to tell you why, but they are free NOT to
do so if they wish. You have the right to vote the way you want
to. I doubt that there is one person that is out to
use all his/her votes on you, anyway.
Doubt it you may. I have watched whole blocks of my posts go -- one
after the other with no rhyme or reason as to quality.
The only reason that I am bringing this up is that I have been
told by several that I am far from the first person
that this has happened to.
Does "this" refer to receiving -- votes? Or receiving a whole
horde of -- votes? If it's the latter, I'm curious as
to why. You made some mention of being voluble in the chatterbox.
Do you think that may be affecting your
standing in the community?
Receiving a whole horde of -- votes. I don't know if my talking in
the chatterbox has any effect on my standing. The feedback that I
have received directly has actually been incredibly positive. I would,
in fact, really like to receive feedback from some of the people
who are voting against me. I have publically asked for that to a
notable (not entire) lack of response.
/tell me in person what specifically you object to. If you
think it warrants public discussion, then post your
opinion as an anonymous monk. A very good place to do that
is in response to this post.
Sure. I think that you are not the center of anything here, though
you have made an extraordinary number of posts
in the very short time since you joined the community. I think you
should cite facts instead of making ambiguous
accusations about an organization of conspirators (q{But a small
clique should not decide for everyone who they
do and do not want to be around, then organize an effort to drive
the unwanted people away.})
I am sorry for ambiguous accusations. I am mainly repeating what I
have been told in private. I would like it if some of those people
were to step forward and say in public what they said in private.
Namely that I seem to be the latest lightning rod for stuff that has
been going on for quite a while.
But I will not publically pass on what I was told in private and
have not been told I can pass on.
My apologies for having made the accusation though. Clearly all I
have to go on are personal impresssions and private comments. I
would, in fact, dearly love to have more to go on but that does not
seem to be happening.
This is the first post of yours I have read. I replied instead
of voting on it. I would be interested to hear your
further impressions of the community, but with more specifics.
Well the people who are willing to talk to me seem to be an extremely
nice group of people, and that ranges from raw initiates who have
just received unexpectedly quick answers to very experienced monks
who are commenting on things that I have seen.
OTOH it seems that some people are not willing to talk to me, and
at least some strongly dislike me.
Is that specific enough?
Regards,
Ben
| [reply] [Watch: Dir/Any] |
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> I would like it if some of those people were
> to step forward and say in public what they
> said in private. Namely that I seem to be the
> latest lightning rod for stuff that has been
> going on for quite a while.
For what it's worth, I was one of the PM users
who /told him what I thought about the situation.
My opinions, etc. And while I'm generally loathe to
get involved in site politics, I think I'll "contribute"
here.
I've been on PM since February of this year, and
while that doesn't by any means give me some sort
of superiority, it *does* give me perspective. Let's
get straight into it: my main problem with PerlMonks
is this very sense of community described in this
thread by zzamboni. The "community" of PerlMonks
presents itself as an accepting, helpful place
where new Perl users can ask anything, and
shouldn't feel ashamed about it. Sure, they should
do some work on their own, but they shouldn't feel
initimidated like they might posting on
comp.lang.perl.misc.
This is a noble idea.
The problem is, the "community" that I've seen on
PerlMonks doesn't reflect this ideal.
That's too general a statement, of course. And yes,
I've definitely seen many PerlMonks regulars trying
their best to be helpful to newbies, rather than simply
cursing them out.
But at the same time, I've seen a very disturbing
amount of nasty cliquey (not to mention borderline
misogynistic, but that's another issue) behavior.
Certain users--no names, mainly because I don't
know whether these users would like be used as
"examples"--have simply to make a post to have
it voted down.
There is a very cliquey
element of PerlMonks that makes it a rather ugly
place to be, at times. This element is, I think, what
leads to things like tilly's posts getting voted
down; it's a gang mentality that seems to be motivated
in part by the voting system. I don't know whether
it becames a game, or a contest, to see how low
a node's reputation can go. But it's just not fun
to watch.
What's worse, many of the users who I've personally
seen ambushed--ambushed right out of the purported welcoming
party that is PerlMonks--have been very experienced
Perl users. Some have been battered about, have left for
a bit, but have come back. Which is wonderful. But others
haven't come back, and that's a real shame. Because
every time this "community" drives away a Perl user--any
user, but particularly one with a vast amount of
experience--make no mistake: it is a *loss* for the
community.
Maybe it comes down to this: it is my opinion that a
user who regularly makes excellent, helpful posts on
Perl is far more important to this "community" than
someone who's always perfectly polite in his/her
responses.
And it seems that this opinion just is basically at odds
with the PerlMonks philosophy, which seems to, in times of
conflict, value
the vague sense of "community" over helpful, interesting,
and, I'd even go so far to say, *correct*, posts. Which will
probably get this node dropped down to about -500 in
reputation. :)
Now I don't want to give the impression that I don't like
PerlMonks. I truly enjoy the site,
and I've learned about Perl by helping other people learn.
Which is a very positive thing. Nor am I suggesting
that I have better ideas how to run the "community". I
don't. And I'm not saying that this is the only Perl group
out there blighted by egos. It isn't.
It is, however, one of
the first I've seen that, despite these problems, goes so
far as to act as if it's a warm, accepting community. And
it isn't, always.
Anyway, I hate writing this kind of stuff. So I'll stop. | [reply] [Watch: Dir/Any] [d/l] |
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Indeed you did talk to me and gave me a perspective that
I don't think anyone else could have. In turn when I
talked about the reaction from experienced monks, you
certainly did more than just cross my mind.
As I said privately to you, I am impressed by what this
site aims for and what it has accomplished. There
certainly are prominent members of the Perl community
that I simply could not see successfully fitting in here.
Unlike you, I do not have a sense of the history of this
place. But like you I don't know how it should be run.
So far on the whole it seems to have done a pretty good
job. That is just a first impression though. :-)
I certainly would rather that people looking for good
examples showed up here instead of at Matt's Script
Archives... (VBG)
| [reply] [Watch: Dir/Any] |
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