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RE (2): Goodbye!

by tilly (Archbishop)
on Aug 09, 2000 at 02:32 UTC ( #26907=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to RE: Goodbye!
in thread Goodbye!

Who do you mean by we?

Let me speak for myself. I showed up out of nowhere. I tread on a few toes. I admit it. But I have tried to be helpful and polite, I have an offer on my home node for anyone who dislikes me. As I say there, I won't repeat names of anyone who takes me up on it. I will say that nobody has yet taken me up on it though.

Many (most?) people here have welcomed me. But I have also watched in disbelief as I answer several questions to the best of my ability and they get downgraded one after the other. Which is why today no post of mine appears in the list of best posts of the day...

(Please do not react to that by modding me up across the board either. I don't particularly care if my rating moves more slowly. I really would dislike being the center of any more politics than is necessary. Besides which, as long as whoever it is doing that keeps on doing that, they cannot use their votes against someone who actually would be bothered. :-)

The only reason that I am bringing this up is that I have been told by several that I am far from the first person that this has happened to. Please, if you think that my posts do not make a positive contribution, /tell me in person what specifically you object to. If you think it warrants public discussion, then post your opinion as an anonymous monk. A very good place to do that is in response to this post.

But a small clique should not decide for everyone who they do and do not want to be around, then organize an effort to drive the unwanted people away. If I was the only person this happened to, well that isn't a big deal, there are jerks out there and I long ago learned to accept that. In that case I would not want to inflame the situation by posting this. But it appears that it is far from just me, so I will.

Sincerely,
Ben

EDIT
Inside of an hour of posting the above I had been downmodded across the board enough to lose several xp. Among the posts that were hit was The path to mastery which I really doubt anyone considered of particularly poor quality. But I cannot honestly say that nobody has told me they were offended by me because someone did, "Just so you can't say that nobody told you that." I did not receive an explanation though of exactly why this post caused offence... (In truth I think it might have been a joke..)


Comment on RE (2): Goodbye!
RE:(3): Goodbye! (regarding the shadow conspiracy)
by neshura (Chaplain) on Aug 09, 2000 at 03:49 UTC

    > Let me speak for myself.

    This may be incredibly obvious but no one speaks for anyone here but themselves, even if they use the word "we" in their posts.

    > I tread on a few toes...I have tried to be helpful and polite

    I've seen the latter, I believe. You should stick with that one instead of the former. There seems to be a general community spirit of helpfulness here, and when someone acts contrary to that spirit, I've noticed that many individuals speak up in defense of the Monastery and its unwritten guidelines of behavior. (clarification: good, civil, community-oriented behavior)

    > Many (most?) people here have welcomed me.

    There are thousands of users. That's quite a welcome. I don't mean to be sarcastic, but you seem to use a lot of hyperbole in your post.

    > But I have also watched in disbelief as I answer several questions to the best of my ability and they get downgraded one after the other.

    I haven't read enough of your posts to know whether "to the best of my ability" is synonymous with "correct" and "the needed information". I don't know the tone of your posts either. So I'm not sure I could say that the reaction to your posts is unfair.

    > Which is why today no post of mine appears in the list of best posts of the day...

    Is that your goal?

    > Please do not react to that by modding me up across the board either.

    Okay. I haven't voted on this node because while I believe it is well-written, I also believe that it casts a lot of shadowy accusations. I don't like that as a precedent. Plus, even if I had real evidence that you'd been wronged, I still think that sympathy votes are just uncool.

    > Besides which, as long as whoever it is doing that keeps on doing that, they cannot use their votes against someone who actually would be bothered. :-)

    Some posts deserve a --. I haven't read yours, but it's possible that some of yours deserved to be downgraded. I've gotten -- votes before, sometimes for no reason, more often because there was something not right with my post. It would be more appropriate for the person who votes you down to tell you why, but they are free NOT to do so if they wish. You have the right to vote the way you want to. I doubt that there is one person that is out to use all his/her votes on you, anyway.

    >The only reason that I am bringing this up is that I have been told by several that I am far from the first person that this has happened to.

    Does "this" refer to receiving -- votes? Or receiving a whole horde of -- votes? If it's the latter, I'm curious as to why. You made some mention of being voluble in the chatterbox. Do you think that may be affecting your standing in the community?

    > /tell me in person what specifically you object to. If you think it warrants public discussion, then post your opinion as an anonymous monk. A very good place to do that is in response to this post.

    Sure. I think that you are not the center of anything here, though you have made an extraordinary number of posts in the very short time since you joined the community. I think you should cite facts instead of making ambiguous accusations about an organization of conspirators (q{But a small clique should not decide for everyone who they do and do not want to be around, then organize an effort to drive the unwanted people away.})

    This is the first post of yours I have read. I replied instead of voting on it. I would be interested to hear your further impressions of the community, but with more specifics.

    Thanks.

    e-mail neshura

      Let me speak for myself.

      This may be incredibly obvious but no one speaks for anyone here but themselves, even if they use the word "we" in their posts.

      I meant as opposed to passing on the opinions I have been fed in private by people ranging from bypassers to old and respected members. Or as opposed to my opinions about other people who have shown up here.

      I tread on a few toes...I have tried to be helpful and polite

      I've seen the latter, I believe. You should stick with that one instead of the former. There seems to be a general community spirit of helpfulness here, and when someone acts contrary to that spirit, I've noticed that many individuals speak up in defense of the Monastery and its unwritten guidelines of behavior. (clarification: good, civil, community-oriented behavior)

      Note that I did not intend to tread on some toes. I know I did. I indeed try to be helpful and polite but I am letting people know that there have indeed been things that I know could upset some.

      Many (most?) people here have welcomed me.

      There are thousands of users. That's quite a welcome. I don't mean to be sarcastic, but you seem to use a lot of hyperbole in your post.

      Trust me, this was not intended as hyperbole. I know that many have welcomed me because I see how many people privately tell me "thanks", and I know how many private discussions I carry on. Plus when I posted the above I saw multiple people's response in the chatterbox. In addition I know a lot of people voted for posts of mine. Is that a sign of welcome?

      I do not, of course, know the majority opinion. Hence my question mark. But certainly in terms of people talking to me I have had virtually all positive feedback.

      But I have also watched in disbelief as I answer several questions to the best of my ability and they get downgraded one after the other.

      I haven't read enough of your posts to know whether "to the best of my ability" is synonymous with "correct" and "the needed information". I don't know the tone of your posts either. So I'm not sure I could say that the reaction to your posts is unfair.

      Please do then and make up your own mind. I have received private opinions from over a half-dozen people who thought it was unfair.

      As an example, ask whether Simple Locking deserved to show up (however briefly) on the worst nodes of the day:

      Which is why today no post of mine appears in the list of best posts of the day...

      Is that your goal?

      No, but for several days I consistently had 3-5 posts on that list and I do not think my posts today are worse than my posts yesterday.

      In other words I am stating how noticable the change is.

      Please do not react to that by modding me up across the board either.

      Okay. I haven't voted on this node because while I believe it is well-written, I also believe that it casts a lot of shadowy accusations. I don't like that as a precedent. Plus, even if I had real evidence that you'd been wronged, I still think that sympathy votes are just uncool.

      That is close to how I feel. However I included this comment because I had already /told 3 people that I wished they had not reacted that way. It is far better for me to make my opinion clear once publically before the fact than to tell it in private to everyone who tells me that they already did it.

      Besides which, as long as whoever it is doing that keeps on doing that, they cannot use their votes against someone who actually would be bothered. :-)

      Some posts deserve a --. I haven't read yours, but it's possible that some of yours deserved to be downgraded. I've gotten -- votes before, sometimes for no reason, more often because there was something not right with my post. It would be more appropriate for the person who votes you down to tell you why, but they are free NOT to do so if they wish. You have the right to vote the way you want to. I doubt that there is one person that is out to use all his/her votes on you, anyway.

      Doubt it you may. I have watched whole blocks of my posts go -- one after the other with no rhyme or reason as to quality.

      The only reason that I am bringing this up is that I have been told by several that I am far from the first person that this has happened to.

      Does "this" refer to receiving -- votes? Or receiving a whole horde of -- votes? If it's the latter, I'm curious as to why. You made some mention of being voluble in the chatterbox. Do you think that may be affecting your standing in the community?

      Receiving a whole horde of -- votes. I don't know if my talking in the chatterbox has any effect on my standing. The feedback that I have received directly has actually been incredibly positive. I would, in fact, really like to receive feedback from some of the people who are voting against me. I have publically asked for that to a notable (not entire) lack of response.

      /tell me in person what specifically you object to. If you think it warrants public discussion, then post your opinion as an anonymous monk. A very good place to do that is in response to this post.

      Sure. I think that you are not the center of anything here, though you have made an extraordinary number of posts in the very short time since you joined the community. I think you should cite facts instead of making ambiguous accusations about an organization of conspirators (q{But a small clique should not decide for everyone who they do and do not want to be around, then organize an effort to drive the unwanted people away.})

      I am sorry for ambiguous accusations. I am mainly repeating what I have been told in private. I would like it if some of those people were to step forward and say in public what they said in private. Namely that I seem to be the latest lightning rod for stuff that has been going on for quite a while. But I will not publically pass on what I was told in private and have not been told I can pass on.

      My apologies for having made the accusation though. Clearly all I have to go on are personal impresssions and private comments. I would, in fact, dearly love to have more to go on but that does not seem to be happening.

      This is the first post of yours I have read. I replied instead of voting on it. I would be interested to hear your further impressions of the community, but with more specifics.

      Well the people who are willing to talk to me seem to be an extremely nice group of people, and that ranges from raw initiates who have just received unexpectedly quick answers to very experienced monks who are commenting on things that I have seen.

      OTOH it seems that some people are not willing to talk to me, and at least some strongly dislike me.

      Is that specific enough?

      Regards,
      Ben

RE (3): Goodbye!
by btrott (Parson) on Aug 09, 2000 at 08:16 UTC
    Since tilly asked, or rather queried...
    > I would like it if some of those people were > to step forward and say in public what they > said in private. Namely that I seem to be the > latest lightning rod for stuff that has been > going on for quite a while.
    For what it's worth, I was one of the PM users who /told him what I thought about the situation. My opinions, etc. And while I'm generally loathe to get involved in site politics, I think I'll "contribute" here.

    I've been on PM since February of this year, and while that doesn't by any means give me some sort of superiority, it *does* give me perspective. Let's get straight into it: my main problem with PerlMonks is this very sense of community described in this thread by zzamboni. The "community" of PerlMonks presents itself as an accepting, helpful place where new Perl users can ask anything, and shouldn't feel ashamed about it. Sure, they should do some work on their own, but they shouldn't feel initimidated like they might posting on comp.lang.perl.misc.

    This is a noble idea.

    The problem is, the "community" that I've seen on PerlMonks doesn't reflect this ideal.

    That's too general a statement, of course. And yes, I've definitely seen many PerlMonks regulars trying their best to be helpful to newbies, rather than simply cursing them out.

    But at the same time, I've seen a very disturbing amount of nasty cliquey (not to mention borderline misogynistic, but that's another issue) behavior. Certain users--no names, mainly because I don't know whether these users would like be used as "examples"--have simply to make a post to have it voted down.

    There is a very cliquey element of PerlMonks that makes it a rather ugly place to be, at times. This element is, I think, what leads to things like tilly's posts getting voted down; it's a gang mentality that seems to be motivated in part by the voting system. I don't know whether it becames a game, or a contest, to see how low a node's reputation can go. But it's just not fun to watch.

    What's worse, many of the users who I've personally seen ambushed--ambushed right out of the purported welcoming party that is PerlMonks--have been very experienced Perl users. Some have been battered about, have left for a bit, but have come back. Which is wonderful. But others haven't come back, and that's a real shame. Because every time this "community" drives away a Perl user--any user, but particularly one with a vast amount of experience--make no mistake: it is a *loss* for the community.

    Maybe it comes down to this: it is my opinion that a user who regularly makes excellent, helpful posts on Perl is far more important to this "community" than someone who's always perfectly polite in his/her responses.

    And it seems that this opinion just is basically at odds with the PerlMonks philosophy, which seems to, in times of conflict, value the vague sense of "community" over helpful, interesting, and, I'd even go so far to say, *correct*, posts. Which will probably get this node dropped down to about -500 in reputation. :)

    Now I don't want to give the impression that I don't like PerlMonks. I truly enjoy the site, and I've learned about Perl by helping other people learn. Which is a very positive thing. Nor am I suggesting that I have better ideas how to run the "community". I don't. And I'm not saying that this is the only Perl group out there blighted by egos. It isn't.

    It is, however, one of the first I've seen that, despite these problems, goes so far as to act as if it's a warm, accepting community. And it isn't, always.

    Anyway, I hate writing this kind of stuff. So I'll stop.

      Indeed you did talk to me and gave me a perspective that I don't think anyone else could have. In turn when I talked about the reaction from experienced monks, you certainly did more than just cross my mind.

      As I said privately to you, I am impressed by what this site aims for and what it has accomplished. There certainly are prominent members of the Perl community that I simply could not see successfully fitting in here. Unlike you, I do not have a sense of the history of this place. But like you I don't know how it should be run. So far on the whole it seems to have done a pretty good job. That is just a first impression though. :-)

      I certainly would rather that people looking for good examples showed up here instead of at Matt's Script Archives... (VBG)

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