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Re^3: Consider this: What makes a good node title?

by spiritway (Vicar)
on Nov 04, 2005 at 19:50 UTC ( #505858=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re^2: Consider this: What makes a good node title?
in thread Consider this: What makes a good node title?

Perhaps if you take another look, you'll see what I actually wrote instead of what you say I wrote. First, I did not say we're the "big boys". I said we're the Monastery. The big boys are out there in the "real" world. Second, I did not say our job is to eliminate anyone's naivete. I suggested that we would be doing a disservice to people by fostering their naivete. There is a significant difference between the two statements.

What you have done is to distort my words to make them more extreme, and then shown that the extreme position is untenable. That is known, among other things, as a "straw man" argument. It is specious.

As for any supposed "self-aggrandizing egotism", that statement is false. I am one of the newer people here. I am brand new to Perl. I can't write even a simple script without having to check the books to see just how it's done - and when I do finally get something written, it looks suspiciously like C, because that's the language I'm coming from. I have no illusions about being a top Perl programmer, or even a competent one. I have a long way to go.

Still, despite all this, I would prefer that I not be talked down to, that the language I am asked to use here match that language that is used outside the Monastery. Yes, it's nice to know that when I get stuck, someone will likely come along and explain something to me, but I still feel it's a good thing to be allowed to flounder as I grope my way to understanding. Babying me now only delays the time when I must learn all the stuff I need to know. "Out there" there aren't likely to be so many helpful, understanding people, as here in the Monastery (present company excepted). I much prefer to learn as much as I can here, before getting knocked around in the so-called real world.

Sorry if I didn't give your idea my complete approval, but I'm entitled to my opinions, as are we all.


Comment on Re^3: Consider this: What makes a good node title?
Re^4: Consider this: What makes a good node title?
by sauoq (Abbot) on Nov 04, 2005 at 21:16 UTC
    What you have done is to distort my words to make them more extreme, and then shown that the extreme position is untenable.

    I'll retract my third sentence in the referenced reply in favor of this somewhat more verbose rewording:

    We can can help them learn how the "big boys" work, huh? And we are able to avoid reinforcing their naivete, eh? All by retitling their nodes?

    I stand by the rest of that reply in its entirety, your attempted rebuttal notwithstanding.

    Sorry, but highlighting the subtle but contemptible attitude implied in your post does not a straw man argument make.

    As for any supposed "self-aggrandizing egotism", that statement is false. I am one of the newer people here.

    Well, I meant that in more of a group-think sort of way than you personally. It's hard to explain—which is, I guess, why I didn't. Suffice it to say that I've come to expect statements like yours from a certain class of individuals that seem overly preoccupied with their own elitism. Unfortunately, newbies sometimes latch on to that attitude as some sort of banner and wave it vigorously in an attempt to show that they belong.

    I'll take the humility evident in your reply as evidence enough that I was wrong in assuming that's what was going on in this case. So, I'm sorry about that.

    Still, without the context of your reply, your statement is basically indistinguishable from some of that banner wavin' and I do encourage you to think about what you are implying.

    -sauoq
    "My two cents aren't worth a dime.";
    
      We can can help them learn how the "big boys" work, huh? And we are able to avoid reinforcing their naivete, eh? All by retitling their nodes?

      Ah, that's still not what I said, nor what I implied. You highlighted what wasn't there to begin with, and then knocked down that attitude. That is a straw man attack, which is a fallacy.

        Ah, that's still not what I said, nor what I implied.

        What you said was:

        "All we'd have done is reinforced their naivete, not helped them to learn how the big boys work."

        If that doesn't imply that we could somehow, if we only tried, "avoid reinforcing their naivete" or "help them learn how the 'big boys' work" then it doesn't say anything at all.

        So, which was it? We're you saying something contemptible? Or were you saying nothing at all?

        Feel free to explain what you were saying. Pointing fingers and chanting "fallacy" is no way to have a debate. Not a real one, at any rate. Support your statements, if they are tenable.

        -sauoq
        "My two cents aren't worth a dime.";
        

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