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Re: Breaking Out of the Perl Echo Chamber: A Call to Action

by zentara (Archbishop)
on Sep 18, 2008 at 17:05 UTC ( #712338=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Breaking Out of the Perl Echo Chamber: A Call to Action

<please don't clobber me Aristotle>

:-)

Oooh..... Badges instead of XP. Reminds me of boy scouts. My first impression of the site is "information overload"...... remember the old adage about the man who read so many books he ended up knowing nothing?

Honestly I think there are adequate places already to find answers to Perl questions: here, comp.lang.perl.misc, perl.beginners, etc. This would only serve to dilute the time gurus already spend answering Perl questions. And it would further confuse newbies, as to where they should look for answers.

It's great for other languages though.

</please don't clobber me Aristotle>


I'm not really a human, but I play one on earth Remember How Lucky You Are


Comment on Re: Breaking Out of the Perl Echo Chamber: A Call to Action
Re^2: Breaking Out of the Perl Echo Chamber: A Call to Action
by moritz (Cardinal) on Sep 18, 2008 at 18:08 UTC
    Badges don't substitute XP, stackoverflow.com uses both.

      So now we have to XP whore over there too? This internet is srs bsns...;D

      I'm so adjective, I verb nouns!

      chomp; # nom nom nom

Re^2: Breaking Out of the Perl Echo Chamber: A Call to Action
by chromatic (Archbishop) on Sep 18, 2008 at 18:29 UTC
    Honestly I think there are adequate places already to find answers to Perl questions...

    Sure, but there are plenty of people asking questions in "unapproved" places. Look at Unix Questions or various other web programming forae sometime to see how awful some of the answers are.

Re^2: Breaking Out of the Perl Echo Chamber: A Call to Action
by Aristotle (Chancellor) on Sep 18, 2008 at 23:09 UTC

    here, comp.lang.perl.misc, perl.beginners, etc

    I asked for an effort to break out of the echo chamber, not reinforce it… :-)

    Perl should have a voice in places where people from many languages come together. If the Perl community keeps to itself, how is anyone else to know that a Perl community even exists any more? (Answer: they don’t.)

    And you aren’t going to get people who have no idea that there is a Perl community to come to the Perl community when they have questions. So they will ask where they will get worse answers than they could have gotten. The amount of people who have contact with Perl but not its community or any of the things the community has achieved and learned is staggering, and their (sometimes indifferent, sometimes inevitable) ignorance is self-reinforcing and ultimately results in a much worse reputation for Perl than it deserves.

    The onus is on us to break that cycle. If we want Perl’s name to be widely associated with the things that Perl stands for, we need to represent it out there in the wider community where the others go to, not stay facing inwards.

    Makeshifts last the longest.

      If the Perl community fragments into people answering questions in several different places, none of them will be good places to go to get information. The correct solution to get to the thing you want (i.e. more people know where to go to get Perl information), you need to speak with the people running StackOverflow and ask them to direct non-trivial questions about Perl to perlmonks.org.

      For reference, I found Perlmonks via Google (searching on "perl forum", I believe, though I do note that "perl help" doesn't seem to find it, which isn't a good thing — maybe someone should tweak the keywords here). It was my second stop, the first being a forum that never answered my question at all.

      Knowledge forking is bad. Experts don't have unlimited hours to try to keep an eye on many different locations at once. I would have been happier if that first forum hadn't existed at all.

      As an aside, I note that "echo chamber" is a derogatory term, typically used to refer to groups of people with few or no individual ideas that just parrot the loudest talking point currently in use. I'm not sure it's helpful to you to be using that term on the very people you're trying to lure away to join your new clubhouse.

        If the Perl community fragments into people answering questions in several different places, none of them will be good places to go to get information.

        This is a pretty absurd claim. I don’t see how you can credibly make this slippery slope argument given the fragmentation that already exists. I read use.perl but hardly Perl Monks, these days. I picked up p5p a year ago, which I was never reading before. I have never posted on comp.lang.perl.misc. Presumably at least one of these places qualifies as a good place to get information in your opinion. If so, how is your position self-consistent?

        I found Perlmonks via Google

        Congratulations. Now, considering how many questions we get on Perl Monks from people who say “I know this is not Perl-related, but Perl Monks is the best place for this kind of thing that I’ve ever seen, so…”, how likely do you think are people new to Perl to ask Perl questions wherever they happen to already be regulars?

        Knowledge forking is bad.

        … why? What possible advantage does knowledge hoarding offer?

        Experts don’t have unlimited hours to try to keep an eye on many different locations at once.

        That is why you don’t want all the experts visiting only a single set of venues.

        groups of people with few or no individual ideas that just parrot the loudest talking point currently in use.

        The Perl community only sporadically pays attention to the hot issues of the rest of the programming world and almost never tries to sell its issues to a wider audience as worthy of attention, and the rest of the world happily ignores the Perl community. We’re pretty set in our ways, we know what works for us, and we are happy to leave it at that. If you don’t see that, or what’s wrong with it, then I don’t think I can help; an echo chamber never looks like one from the inside.

        your new clubhouse.

        If you think I care about Stack Overflow, you must not have read my posts. Another distraction is really the last thing I needed. But I care about Perl.

        Makeshifts last the longest.

      If we want Perl’s name to be widely associated with the things that Perl stands for, we need to represent it out there in the wider community where the others go to, not stay facing inwards.

      I nominate Aristotle to be "Perl Ambassador-at-large" for the world. :-)


      I'm not really a human, but I play one on earth Remember How Lucky You Are
        Seconded.
Re^2: Breaking Out of the Perl Echo Chamber: A Call to Action
by zby (Vicar) on Sep 19, 2008 at 19:58 UTC
    They have one very clever strategy at StackOverflow - read their ideas around Google searches at the Joel's blog. They plan to attract all the people that google for some random programming problem - they designed a few details of the site so that this should work really smoothly. I think there is a great power in that startegy.
      Yeah, but that sounds like it's a monetary venture and eventually will be cluttered with designer Google ads. Want to know something about this c program, and are on Windows, then you will see ads for the spiffy new Visual C++ , or whatever. At least Perlmonks dosn't give a hoot about being listed first on Google.

      I'm not really a human, but I play one on earth Remember How Lucky You Are

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