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Re^4: Is Using Threads Slower Than Not Using Threads?

by ysth (Canon)
on Nov 07, 2010 at 22:13 UTC ( #869967=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re^3: Is Using Threads Slower Than Not Using Threads?
in thread Is Using Threads Slower Than Not Using Threads?

In our last disagreement you would not even so much as recognize my arguments about context, just completely ignoring anything I said. And there you were taking one phrase out of its qualifying context. Here I am making an objection to a complete thought that was part of your reply to the OP; yes, not one pertinent to your main point.

Why am I doing so? Because you seem to have elected yourself defender of ithreads to the point where you attack even true and reasonable cautionary points about them with a variety of shenanigans designed more to conceal than expose truth. The truth is that ithreads are a very different beast than people coming from other languages may expect. They are slow to start and tend to cause memory bloat. Anywhere there is support for copy-on-write fork, fork and some variety of IPC is almost always a better choice.

If that's politics, so be it. Don't bother responding, I'm not going to read it.

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Comment on Re^4: Is Using Threads Slower Than Not Using Threads?
Re^5: Is Using Threads Slower Than Not Using Threads?
by BrowserUk (Pope) on Nov 07, 2010 at 22:31 UTC
    Don't bother responding, I'm not going to read it.

    Shame. You might have learnt a little history. It is all about the context in which something is said; and why it is said in that context.


    Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
    "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
    In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.

      BrowserUk from 2003:

      The result is the only way to approach a 'safe' and cross-platform implementation of threads in perl is to emulate forking.

      and from 2005:

      Though I think if [Perl] threads did not try to emulate fork

      (underlining added by me). Then tye from 2010:

      Perl's "threads" came to be because no Perl porter was able to remove the race conditions from trying to use real threads with Perl. So they switched to using threads to emulate fork() but much less efficiently in both memory and CPU required.

      and a short time later:

      Perl protects its internals by making full copies of its internals (the interpreter state and all data) -- emulating fork but less efficiently.

      BrowserUk spawned multiple extended threads and subthreads railing against my stating that iThreads "emulate fork". Including such quotes as:

      iThreads do not emulate fork.

      (from Re^12: Utter FUD!, original emphasis preserved) and

      [Perl] Threads do not emulate fork

      (from Re^6: Utter FUD!) and

      But neither are [iThreads] new processes--forks defining characteristic--so any allusion to that is simplistic, inaccurate and deliberately misleading.

      (from Re^12: Utter FUD!). Plus lots of other complaining about people daring to mention "fork emulation".

      Unfortunately, I have no idea what motivated BrowserUk to so vehemently contradict himself. Nor what he has dreamed up that leads him to claim "Tye's statement has [...] a lot of political intent" nor why he considers it "simplistic, inaccurate", and (especially) "deliberately misleading" nor what makes him say "I may have my suspicions about his reasoning" and "I am wilfully understanding Tye's motivation".

      I have not seen even a solid hint as to what this "motivation" that BrowserUk has dreamed up is. Just the above extremely vague alluding to some secret motivation that I am hiding but that BrowserUk has sleuthed out but refuses to mention.

      Perhaps the strong reaction is BrowserUk (in part) reacting to his previously being "simplistic, inaccurate and deliberately misleading"? Maybe that was the point of linking to the "history lesson". If so, that certainly wasn't clear to me.

      I don't know. Note that I used quotations because, not understanding what BrowserUk is going on about, trying to paraphase would surely lead to worse mischaracterization (than the deliberate mischaracterization that will likely be claimed via willfully taking the quotes out of context). Well, I made it trivial to view the context in many cases, in case one is curious, and made the literal parts clear enough that super search can be used for the others.

      - tye        

        Oh dear. How predictable. Gloat much?

        I gift you the evidence, and you make out like a) you found it yourself; b) like it wasn't right there all the time for anyone to find. (Even you.)

        And even then, despite all the quoting, you still can't see the distinctions. As someone recently said; I thought you were smarter than that.

        Stop. Think. Why did I gift you?


        Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
        "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
        In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
        Unfortunately, I have no idea what motivated BrowserUk...

        It is called cognitive dissonance, a recent study ("When in doubt, shout") explains his behavior well. He has been shaken in his belief that threads are the silver bullet for all things, because he knows now that his complaints from 2003 about "threads emulating forks in perl" (which he thinks was a conspiracy by the UNIX folks developing perl against Windows-users) are false. But he cannot let go of the belief that threads must be superior to forks. Now he rationalizes this by complaining that people run a "political" campaign against him. BrowserUk is a Born-Again-Threader. In his world, global warming is caused by forking and real computer science began when threads were invented.

        It is understandable for someone who is getting old, but sad, I agree. I hope he does not drink industrial bleach because no one takes his FUD seriously.

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