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Re^8: 20 most important Perl Best Practices

by tinita (Parson)
on Aug 29, 2012 at 11:56 UTC ( #990448=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re^7: 20 most important Perl Best Practices
in thread 20 most important Perl Best Practices

let me tell you something. in my experience, if women start a discussion about something they feel uncomfortable or are offended, they are called feminist fanatists or something like that. yes, that happens. women get harrassed by phone and email after such discussions. yes, that happens (fortunately not to me yet, but to a friend).
it is not easy for the minority of women to speak up here, also because of such reasons. believe it or not. people are harrassed because they are women, gay, handicapped or whatever.
now a guy speaks up, and he doesn't even take the right to speak for all women, he just says what he thinks he would feel. and suddenly all hell breaks loose. WTF?

Now I add a comment that I in fact feel uncomfortable. and what happens? nothing. you don't care. and for Jenda I'm the one closed minded women.

So women can't speak up easily, because they are afraid of being called fanatists. and men can't speak up for women either. great!

I now do speak up. I just don't want to see or hear such pubertal jokes here, and it's now up to you to call me fanatist, closed minded or whatever.


Comment on Re^8: 20 most important Perl Best Practices
Re^9: 20 most important Perl Best Practices
by BrowserUk (Pope) on Aug 29, 2012 at 12:39 UTC

    Breaking my "no further interactions until ..." missive for a special case.

    1. I had not seen your earlier post. It was not a reply to me so I didn't see it. Indeed, it just took me a while to find it.
    2. I did not put the words in Jenda's post. He did not aim those words at a) you; b) nor any women.
    3. I did not write the cartoon. I did not post the originally link to the cartoon.
    4. The cartoon was not posted here. You had to follow a link to find it. There are far worse links to follow.
    5. I am not responsible for; nor defending; nor condoning; any of that (mostly unrelated) male behaviour you cite above.
    6. I have not, and would not make any attempt to suppress or belittle the discussion of the (mostly unrelated) issues you raise above.

      Indeed, if you would care to scan back through my 10 years & nearly 18,000 posts of interactions here, you will find that I have been very vocal on defending those (thankfully few) people whom I have seen targeted on the basis of the gender, race, or religion.

    7. Finally, I wonder if you have actually read the cartoon in question, because -- I've said this several times now, but it bares repeating -- the butt of the joke in the cartoon, is exactly the stereotypical male behaviour you are decrying.

      What makes the cartoon so funny, is that it turns that stereotypical male behavior back at its source -- men.

      In the calm light of reasoned, thoughtful understanding, you might see that such reverse-targeted humour does far more to modify stereotypical male behavior, than any amount of "the jokes fine in private but don't mention it when there are ladies present" ever can.


    With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday'
    Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
    "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
    In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.

    RIP Neil Armstrong

      the main point i'm annoyed by is not so much the cartoon itself. it doesn't matter who is "the butt of the joke" so much. it's just, please don't sexualize programming and keep such jokes where they belong to. it's not about lynching a guy for posting such a link. like Ovid said, things like that can happen.
      what i'm mostly disappointed about is the reactions: pemungkah suggests that women might not like it to see such jokes here, and posts a link to a very nice keynote, and that he is critised heavily for doing that.
      telling me that I just didn't understand the joke right really doesn't help.
        please don't sexualize programming

        The character in the cartoon that did so, is roundly and emphatically put in his place for thinking with his dick. That's the joke.

        In cartoon form, so no individual can be offended by it, your exact point is being made. And being made in a way that will have far more impact on the general male programmer than any amount of -- please forgive the phrase, it isn't aimed at you -- preaching.

        telling me that I just didn't understand the joke right

        It wasn't you that missed the joke -- you might have, but that's neither here nor there -- it was pemungkah. Perhaps a linguistic thing?

        There is nothing wrong with raising issues like this, but you do have to do so by picking on real examples. This was not such an example.

        posts a link to a very nice keynote,

        I agree completely. So much so that I watched it all the way through and then actually cited and re-linked it in another thread within hours.


        With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday'
        Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
        "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
        In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.

        RIP Neil Armstrong

        tinita, I agree that the point is mainly that we don't need to sexualize our conversation in the context of perlmonks.

        I did enjoy the cartoon and thought it made its points in a clever way, including the sexualization of perl. But I would have felt uncomfortable posting a link to it on perlmonks because it's a global forum and certainly there are some people in that forum who do not want to see perl sexualized and I value their contribution to the forum.

        I don't know if a <NSFW> label would have helped the situation or not. Certainly, it would have just been best to suppress the urge to post a link to it.

        I agree that it's not about lynching the original poster. That's definitely not the right thing to do. And I can also imagine me trying to defend myself after making such a mistake (although in this case, it's a losing battle). So, I find that understandable.

        I read the whole thread and didn't find it excessively one-sided in favor of the OP or against pemungkah -- there were a lot of replies to OP refuting his statements, in fact more than I expected having read some summaries of the discussion on blogs.perl.org. Anyway, I think much of the perl community has been sensitized to these issues recently discussions like this one and with talks like Schwern's or others in the wider FOSS community. Progress is being made.

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