Re: Acme::Lingua::Pirate::Perl author needs encouragement to add Makefile.PL
by Abigail-II (Bishop) on Sep 17, 2003 at 19:26 UTC
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I checked my calendar, but it's not showing any date near
April 1. I'm ready to believe that you think that Acme::Lingua::Pirate::Perl is a vital module. It might be
for your code, but believe me, the Perl public in general
doesn't have a need for Acme::Lingua::Pirate::Perl.
Really, Randal, it's a joke module. With London roots. In the
Acme name space. And you think it's appropriate to let others
email him about how his module should look like? Djees. He's
the author, not you. You send him a request, he told you no.
Can't you just leave it at that? If you don't like the module:
don't use it. You're smart enough, you can code a module
with similar functionality *with* a Makefile.PL.
Noone suggested mass mailing you when you pulled that
Acme::Time::Current stunt.
Abigail | [reply] |
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Noone suggested mass mailing you when you pulled that Acme::Time::Current stunt.
Amen. I found the author's response to be quite humorous. It would have been even funnier if he insulted you in pirate speak!
P.S. Abigail, I consistently love your commentary. Someone should archive your comments and put them in a book. I would buy it. Better yet, come to America and run for president. :)
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s/come to America/come back to America/
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Re: Acme::Lingua::Pirate::Perl author needs encouragement to add Makefile.PL
by hardburn (Abbot) on Sep 17, 2003 at 16:55 UTC
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To be fair, he's using Module::Build rather than ExtUtils::MakeMaker. After a few minutes of browsing the POD, Module::Build seems much more flexible than MakeMaker.
I don't like his reply, but it might be more productive to alter CPAN.pm/CPANPLUS.pm to make it capable of using alternativite build systems. Meanwhile, Earle might be pointed to Module::Build::Compat.
Update: another poster pointed out that CPANPLUS can already do this :)
---- I wanted to explore how Perl's closures can be manipulated, and ended up creating an object system by accident.
-- Schemer
Note: All code is untested, unless otherwise stated
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Okay, I think Module::Build::Compat is what will finally switch me over to using Module::Build. Thanks for the link.
Cheers,
Ovid
New address of my CGI Course.
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Re: Acme::Lingua::Pirate::Perl author needs encouragement to add Makefile.PL
by adrianh (Chancellor) on Sep 17, 2003 at 16:45 UTC
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While I agree it is somewhat brusque I can empathise with wanting to kill ExtUtils::MakeMaker and move to Module::Build - and requiring it and CPANPLUS for an Acme module is hardly the end of the world as we know it :-)
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Re: Acme::Lingua::Pirate::Perl author needs encouragement to add Makefile.PL
by hossman (Prior) on Sep 17, 2003 at 17:57 UTC
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I don't neccessarily agree with Randal's choice of wording, or his sentiment, but he has a valid point, that bears some discussion...
Module::Build may be the latest greatest thing in building perl modules, but it seems to me (and aparently at least a few other people) that untill the release version of CPAN.pm supports it, modules posted to CPAN should include a Makefile.PL.
If someone wants to release some perl code on their www site that has special instructions for installing it, fine ... that's their choice. But I like to think that CPAN modules should be held to a slightly higher standard in which there is an expectation that it can be installed as easily as any other module using the CPAN.pm shell.
If I release a distribution on CPAN that was encoded in such a way that required special knowledge in order to install it (either a magic decryption string, or a lot of time pooring over the code to figure out how it was encoded and how to get arround it) would that be an appropriate use of CPAN? ... would it be fair to the perl community at large that I had released a module in such a way that novice users wouldn't be able to install it using the standard installation tools?
This doesn't seem any different. Yes it's an Acme module, and sure there are more inportant things in the world to worry about then this one module ... but it's prompted my curiosity: at what point does a CPAN distribution become "unacceptable" to the perl community?
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would it be fair to the perl community at large that I had released a module in such a way that novice users wouldn't be able to install it using the standard installation tools?
Now you sound if you have some obligation to some "community".
Instead of worrying about things that are on CPAN, worry
about all those modules you haven't written yet. You think
it would be fair to the Perl community at large that you
had not released a module at all?
CPAN has just one requirement: uploaded code should be freely distributable. That's all. No requirement that it
should support CPAN.pm, CPANPLUS.pm, MakeMaker or Module::Build. It's following the Perl spirit, it's only
asking you to be nice. But you don't have to.
Abigail
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I think it is perfectly acceptable to put a module on CPAN that
includes no automated installation and just tells you to copy the
relevant file(s) to the relevant locations. There have been, and
very probably still are, such modules on CPAN.
Besides, using Module::Build only adds a prerequisite to installing
your module. Many modules require that you first download other
modules before building and installing. How is this different except
that the CPAN module doesn't support it. (gad, who really uses CPAN
for anything other than searching and downloading modules anyway,
doesn't anyone look at sources before running make anymore?)
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Re: Acme::Lingua::Pirate::Perl author needs encouragement to add Makefile.PL
by Anonymous Monk on Sep 17, 2003 at 17:10 UTC
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Mr. Martin has his e-mail address in a non-machine-readable mode at his web site.
Don't you think that throwing his e-mail address here you are doing him a lousy service?
If he wanted to avoid spam, you should respect his wishes and ling to that page instead of writing his e-mail address plain and clear.
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Re: Acme::Lingua::Pirate::Perl author needs encouragement to add Makefile.PL
by naChoZ (Curate) on Sep 17, 2003 at 17:21 UTC
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Perhaps you'll need to start attaching your home node's boilerplate to e-mails as well? Sheesh... an unfortunate response.
Seriously though, make use of the new rating and review system to which cpan links. Rate Acme::Lingua::Pirate::Perl here. It seems a more appropriate and beneficial place to post.
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Re: Acme::Lingua::Pirate::Perl author needs encouragement to add Makefile.PL
by Anonymous Monk on Sep 17, 2003 at 16:53 UTC
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This might be considered a meditation if you were asking the community
what their thoughts about different installation methods
(Module::Build for example) in CPAN modules. But instead you just
want to rally the troops to try to bash the module author into doing
your way.
Please, gentle monks, let us meditate on this non-trivial question
rather than acting in the manner Randal suggests.
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Regarding the debate: Randal had a point which may no longer be as valid due to newer ways of building modules (a couple of years ago it would have been a perfectly reasonable email -- now it's debatable), but the response was completely inappropriate. There are certainly people that I do not like online, but if they contact me, I will respond politely. Even if I do lose my temper, I won't respond with such a petty reply. That just shows the maturity level of the author.
Further, please note that he explicitly wrote "politely" and he emphasized it. There was an attempt to rally the troops, but there was no attempt to get them to "bash" the module author. Admittedly, I know Randal and consider him to be a friendly acquaintance so I could be biased, but while I have seen him post things that I feel are offensive, this is not one of them.
Cheers,
Ovid
New address of my CGI Course.
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I did not say or imply it was offensive, but that it was
inappropriate. Your post is so carefully worded that I can't
even tell if you think it was an appropriate meditation or just
defending Randal out of kindness.
If I feel that my email messages to various module
authors are not replied to politely or with the answer I think
best serves the community should Perlmonks::Meditations become my
griping ground as well?
One other note: politely or impolitely refusing aside, the module
author is following the number one preferred scenario of installation
found in the docs of Module::Build::Compat: just include a Build.PL
and no Makefile.PL and require that Module::Build be installed. Can
we fault the author of the Acme:: module for using Module::Build and following
the recommended usage of that module?
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Re: Acme::Lingua::Pirate::Perl author needs encouragement to add Makefile.PL
by PodMaster (Abbot) on Sep 18, 2003 at 08:11 UTC
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I agree with the authors humorous response (if I received such an email, I doubt i could be as funny).
Forget CPAN.pm.
The distribution comes with a
README
which outlines how to install the module.
I suggest you try that email out on every cpan author who uses Module::Build
and see what other kinds of responses you get (probably not as funny).
PS - I do find non-portable install methods annoying (and rarely even resort to writing a Makefile.PL).
I also dislike authors using alternatives to MakeMaker before said alternative are mature enough.
Module::Build is fairly mature. Nuff said.
MJD says "you can't just make shit up and expect the computer to know what you mean, retardo!" | I run a Win32 PPM repository for perl 5.6.x and 5.8.x -- I take requests (README). | ** The third rule of perl club is a statement of fact: pod is sexy. |
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Re: Acme::Lingua::Pirate::Perl author needs encouragement to add Makefile.PL
by Anonymous Monk on Sep 17, 2003 at 17:34 UTC
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It's a friggin' Acme module. We really ought to be spending these precious cycles encouraging folks to not do much more inane thing such as automate the updating of modules like Acme::Current.
-- am | [reply] |
Re: Acme::Lingua::Pirate::Perl author needs encouragement to add Makefile.PL
by Anonymous Monk on Sep 17, 2003 at 18:22 UTC
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Here's my stupid-question-of-the-month (TM). How difficult would it be to send him a (tested) patch containing the change and asking him to make it? I couldn't do it, personally, since I'm a near-rookie but... doesn't sound that hard to me. Also, it would give you much more of the moral high-ground here if he refused to accepe the patch.
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Re: Acme::Lingua::Pirate::Perl author needs encouragement to add Makefile.PL
by Anonymous Monk on Sep 17, 2003 at 16:58 UTC
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Perhaps if you're going to quote Mr. Martin in a public forum you should post the entire correspondence.
"Your code is not installable from CPAN.pm, which is still the primary means of CPAN installation for the majority of Perl users" doesn't exactly sound friendly to me either (I'd also like to know how you came to that conclusion).
I'm also curious why you think this warrants a discussion. Have you looked at this module's source? Slow day for flamebait? Hardly seems worth annoying people over.
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Howdy!
No, it's not "sweetness and light", but neither is it
rude, nasty, or condescending. It is plain speech, cutting
directly to the heart of the matter. Mr. Martin's reply
reflects very poorly on his character. It was uncalled
for, based on the information to hand.
How do you come to your conclusion that we are seeing an
abridged form of the correspondence? Are you Mr. Martin?
Maybe this isn't a traditional "meditation", but I'm not
sure which other category is a better fit. So long as
MakeMaker/CPAN dominate the process the way they do, it
behooves module writers to support it. Alternative tools
need to make the transition mostly painless.
yours,
Michael
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Since when it is worthy of any kind of meditation to quote private
email without permission? And Randal's post does not even make a mediocre attempt at
asking for discussion, it just calls for action without thought. It
not only doesn't belong in Meditations, as it is it doesn't belong in
Perlmonks.
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From: Randal Schwartz
To: Earle Martin
Subject: Re: Acme::Lingua::Pirate::Perl is missing a Makefile.PL
And the installation doesn't get very far without it. Can you get one added
so I can see what you're doing?
And then I replied. As opposed to what his abbreviated quote at the top of this discussion would suggest, I was perfectly civil. Part of his response may sound familiar.
From: Randal Schwartz
To: Earle Martin
Earle> Sorry, this module requires Module::Build to install, as stated in the
Earle> README.
Please add a simple Makefile.PL then, that calls Module::Build. There's an
example of that in the Module::Build docs, if I recall.
Your code is not installable from CPAN.pm, which is still the primary means
of CPAN installation for the majority of Perl users.
At this point I lost patience. I think that's pretty rich coming from the author of Acme::Current, don't you?
-- Earle | [reply] |
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A reply falls below the community's threshold of quality. You may see it by logging in.
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How do you come to your conclusion that we are seeing an abridged form of the correspondence?
"Your code is not installable from CPAN.pm, which is still the primary means of CPAN installation for the majority of Perl users." doesn't sound like a complete email to me. If that's all it consisted of I don't think merlyn should have been surprised by the response. Either way such incomplete quoting always sets off alarms when I read it.
It was uncalled for, based on the information to hand.
The information we have on hand is one person's account of one part of a (apparently) very brief email conversation on an extremely trivial matter. I wouldn't look too far into it.
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Re: Acme::Lingua::Pirate::Perl author needs encouragement to add Makefile.PL
by bart (Canon) on Sep 18, 2003 at 19:37 UTC
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Maybe the author was just practising in talking like a pirate.
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